BIDEN PARDONS HIS SON... ARE MORE ON THE WAY?

CHANGING STATE AID FOR SCHOOLS.

AND MENTAL HEALTH AND PUBLIC SAFETY ON THE NEW YORK CITY SUBWAY.

STAY TUNED, IVORY TOWER IS NEXT.

♪ ♪ ♪ ♪ GOOD EVENING.

WELCOME TO IVORY TOWER.

I'M DAVID CHANATRY, FROM UTICA UNIVERSITY.

I'M JOINED THIS WEEK BY NINA MOORE FROM COLGATE UNIVERSITY, LISA DOLAK FROM THE COLLEGE OF LAW AT SYRACUSE UNIVERSITY, TARA ROSS FROM ONONDAGA COMMUNITY COLLEGE, AND LUKE PERRY FROM UTICA UNIVERSITY.

PRESIDENT BIDEN HAS DONE WHAT HE SAID HE WOULD NOT DO.

HE PARDONED HIS SON HUNTER-- NOT ONLY FOR HIS TAX AND GUN CONVICTIONS, BUT ALSO ANYTHING HE MIGHT HAVE DONE OVER THE PAST DECADE.

THE PARDON IS NOT SITTING WELL WITH EITHER PARTY.

DEMOCRATS SAY THIS UNDERMINES THE RULE OF LAW AND IS A GIFT TO DONALD TRUMP.

SHOULD BIDEN HAVE ISSUED THIS PARDON?

>> ACTUALLY NO, I DON'T THINK HE SHOULD HAVE.

HE HAD BEEN VERY CONSISTENT IN SAYING HE WAS FOAG TOE ABIDE BY THE DECISION OF THE JURY AND BASICALLY ALLOW HIS SON TO TAKE THE CONSEQUENCES OF HIS ACTIONS.

BUT ON THE OTHER HAND HE ALSO SAID MORE THAN ONCE HE THOUGHT THIS WAS A POLITICALLY MOTIVATED CONVICTION AND THAT HAD HIS SON'S NAME BEEN SMITH, THEY WOULDN'T HAVE COME AFTER HIS SON.

SO HE SHOULDN'T HAVE GIVEN THE PARDON.

THE SECOND THING HE SHOULD NOT HAVE DONE IF HE WAS GOING TO GIVE THE PARDON, IT SHOULD NOT HAVE BEEN AN UNCONDITIONAL PARDON.

AT THE VERY LEAST SAY CONTINUE COUNSELING OR SO MANY HOURS OF COMMUNITY SERVICE OR SOMETHING THAT WOULD HAVE RECOGNIZED THAT THIS PERSON, HIS SON HAD BASICALLY PLEAD GUILTY, THAT HE HAD BEEN CONVICTED.

SOMETHING THAT WOULD HAVE MADE IT A LITTLE MORE ACCEPTABLE.

>> YEAH, I'M SORRY, TARA, BUT I DISAGREE DOWN THE LINE AND QUITE HONESTLY, I'M STILL STRUGGLING TO SEE WHAT THE BIG DEAL IS HERE WE ARE NOT JUST TALKING ABOUT ANY FATHER, BUT A FATHER WHO LOST HIS WIFE AND HIS DAUGHTER IN A CAR ACCIDENT IN 1972, I THINK, AND THEN WHO ALSO MORE RECENTLY LOST HIS SON BEAU BIDEN TO CANCER.

SO THE IDEA THAT SOMEHOW THIS HUMAN BEING IS NOT GOING TO BE AFFECTED BY THAT IS SIGNIFICANT.

THERE ARE A COUPLE OF OTHER THINGS TO CONSIDER.

FROM A POLICY STANDPOINT, AND LISA WILL CORRECT ME IF I'M WRONG ON THIS, THERE ARE NO CONSTITUTIONAL LIMITS ON THE USE OF PRESIDENTIAL POWER.

AND THEN FROM A POLITICAL STANDPOINT, I DON'T SEE HOW THIS IS DIFFERENT FROM TRUMP HAVING PARDONED PAUL MAN FOR THE MANIFORT WHO ALSO PLEAD GUILTY TO FEDERAL CHARGES AND ALSO MICHAEL FLYNN.

AND HERE IS WHERE I COME DOWN ON ALL OF THIS AND THE IDEA THAT SOMEHOW THIS IS GOING TO BE USED IN THE FUTURE.

TRUMP IS SMART ENOUGH TO KNOW THAT HE IS NOT GOING TO BE PRESIDENT FOREVER.

SO THE TALK ABOUT THE PREEMPTIVE PARDONS, I THINK, IS JUST PUSHING IT.

>> WHAT ABOUT WITH THIS PARDON?

IT ALSO JUST WASN'T FOR THE TAX AND GUN CONVICTIONS, JUST IN CASE THERE IS ANYTHING ELSE OUT THERE FROM PRESUMABLY FROM UKRAINE IS WHAT THEY'RE TALKING ABOUT, LISA.

>> I MEAN I'M SORRY, NINA BUT I COULDN'T DISAGREE WITH YOU MORE ON THIS.

I REALLY-- WE DISCUSSED THE POTENTIAL FOR PREEMPTIVE PARDONS ON THE SHOW A FEW WEEKS AGO AND AT THAT TIME HUNTER BIDEN CAME UP AND I FOOLISHLY SAID THAT I DIDN'T THINK THAT PRESIDENT BIDEN WOULD DO THIS.

I EVEN, AFTER HE SELFISHLY INSISTED ON STAYING IN THE RACEWAY TOO LONG.

YOU WILL RECALL IT TOOK HIM FOUR YEARS TO ACKNOWLEDGE THE GRANDCHILD THAT WAS BORN OF A RELATIONSHIP THAT HUNTER HAD SEVERAL YEARS AGO.

I TRULY THOUGHT HE HAD THE PERSONAL ENAT THING ANY-- INTEGRITY NOT TO DO THIS AND I WAS COMPLETELY WRONG.

I THINK IT DOES UNDERMINE THE RULE OF LAW.

IT CONTRIBUTES TO THE CYNICISM THAT THEY'RE ALL THE SAME.

ALL THESE POLITICIANS ARE THE SAME.

I'M SIM THET YOU CAN TOO, NINA BUT HE CHOSE TO BE PRESIDENT OF THE UNITED STATES.

SURE HE HAS THE UNLIMITED POWER TO DO IT.

THERE ARE NO RELEVANT CONSTITUTIONAL LIMITATIONS TO THIS SITUATION.

BUT TO MAKE IT ALL WORSE, INSTEAD OF SAYING I PARDON HIM BECAUSE HE IS MY SON AND I LOVE HIM, WHICH WOULD HAVE BEEN COMPLETELY, YOU KNOW, LEGAL.

HE HAD TO TAKE A SHOT AT HIS OWN JUSTICE DEPARTMENT AND ACCUSE THEM OF, YOU KNOW, ENGAGING IN THIS SO CALLED POLITICIZED PROSECUTION, UNFAIR AND SELECTIVE PROSECUTION.

HE DOESN'T GET TO MAKE THAT CAW.

HE DOESN'T GET TO DECIDE THAT.

>> YEAH, BUT HERE IS THE THING.

WE ARE TALKING ABOUT THIS AS IF WE ARE LIVING IN A WORLD OF PRINCIPLED DECISIONS WHEN IT COMES TO THINGS LIKE THIS AND THE JUSTICE DEPARTMENT HAS BEEN POLITICIZED FROM DAY ONE.

AND NOW WE ARE JUST TALKING ABOUT INDIVIDUAL FIGURES, BUT THERE ARE LITERALLY HUNDREDS OF THOUSANDS OF PEOPLE WHO HAVE FEDERAL FELONY CONVICTIONS THAT SHOULDN'T.

AND WE CAN TALK ABOUT THAT.

SO ALL OF A SUDDEN NOW WE ARE UPSET BECAUSE IT'S THESE FEW PEOPLE.

AND AGAIN, IN THIS CASE, I WOULD SAY TRUMP MAY HAVE THE HIGHER ROAD HERE BECAUSE HE COULD HAVE PROSECUTED HILLARY CLINTON.

HE COULD HAVE PROSECUTED HUNTER BIDEN BECAUSE OF THE INFRACTIONS HAVING OCCURRED DURING HIS ADMINISTRATION.

AND HE DIDN'T.

SO I THINK THE HORSE HAS LEFT THE BORN ON THE WHOLE HIGH ROAD ABOUT WHY THIS IS-- I WISH IT WEREN'T THE CASE AND THERE MAY BE SOME CYNICISM BUT, YEAH.

>> I WONDER LUKE, WHAT ELSE IS COMING DOWN THE ROAD.

OVER AT THE NATIONAL REVIEW, ANDREW MSDZ HAS SAID THERE ARE GOING TO BE MORE AND PRESUMABLY HE IS TALKING ABOUT JIM BIDEN, AGAIN, BACK TO GOING BACK 10 YEARS WITH ALL OF THAT.

>> APPARENTLY BIDEN HAS ISSUED A SMALL AMOUNT OF ACTS OF CLEMENCY SO FAR, 237 COMPARED TO THE OBAMA ADMINISTRATION THAT ISSUED 1927.

THERE HASN'T BEEN A LOT OF THESE THINGS BUT WE HAVE SEEN AN INCREASED TREND WITH POLITICAL AND FAMILY CONNECTIONS.

THAT'S THE CRUX.

ON A HUMAN LEVEL, I'M WITH NINA, IT'S A NO BRAINER.

IF THIS IS MY KID, I'M PARDONING HIM.

LIKE AS A FATHER, I DON'T SEE HOW I COULD HAVE ANY OTHER CHOICE.

TO LISA AND TARA'S POINT, THE POLITICS AND GOVERNMENT ON IT, I AGREE WITH YOU BOTH.

POLITICALLY HE MADE A GAMBLE THAT HARRIS WAS GOING TO WIN.

HE SAID HE WASN'T GOING TO DO IT.

HE LOST THE GAMBLE, BLEW UP IN HIS FACE.

TRYING TO COVER IT UP.

I GIVE HIM A LITTLE MORE CREDIT THAN YOU.

HIS STATEMENT DID BEGIN WITH AS A FATHER, I HOPE YOU UNDERSTAND WHY I DID WHAT I DID.

HE COULD HAVE GONE FARTHER AND SAID I LOVE MY KID.

THAT WOULD HAVE BEEN HELPFUL.

FROM A GOOD GOVERNANCE PERSPECTIVE, THIS IS BAD FOR BOTH SIDES.

I'M ALSO WORRIED ABOUT THE PREEMPTIVE PARDONS THAT MIGHT COME THAT ARE IN THE NEWS THE LAST FEW DAYS.

IF WE KEEP HAVING THESE ADMINISTRATIONS COMING AND GOING AND PARDONING PEOPLE INTO THE FUTURE, THAT IS NOT GOOD FOR AMERICAN DEMOCRACY.

>> TRUMP'S PARDONS, YOU MENTIONED SOME OF THE PEOPLE HE PARDONED, THOSE ALL SEEMED TO BE THINGS THAT BENEFITED HIM BECAUSE THEY ALL HAD POTENTIALLY INFORMATION.

PAUL MANIFORT AND ROGER STONE.

>> THEY HAD PLEAD GUILTY AND STARTED SERVING THEIR TERM.

I DON'T SEE THAT AS DISTINCTIVE AS HUNTER.

BUT WHAT WOULD IT SAY ABOUT BIDEN, AND ABOUT THE DEMOCRATIC PARTY IF IT DOES NOT PROTECT THE INTEGRITY AND FUTURE OF FOLKS LIKE LIZ CHENEY, SPECIAL COUNSEL JACK SMITH, ALSO Dr. FAUCI WHO WENT OUT ON A LIMB?

TO NOT PROTECT THEM, SOMETHING IS WRONG WITH THEM.

>> A ON NEW YORK STATE'S EDUCATION OUT THIS WEEK CALLED FOR CHANGES IN THE WAY THE STATE SUPPORTS SCHOOLS.

IT RECOMMENDED CHANGES IN SO-CALLED FOUNDATION AID, INCLUDING ENDING THE "SAVE HARMLESS" PROVISION WHICH ENSURES NO DISTRICT GETS LESS STATE AID THAN THE PREVIOUS YEAR.

THE REPORT'S RECOMMENDATIONS ARE GETTING MIXED REVIEWS IN ALBANY; EVEN THE GOVERNOR IS NOW SAYING SHE DOESN'T WANT CUTS.

AFTER SHE WANTED THE RECOMMENDATIONS.

LUKE, SHOULD THERE BE THESE CHANGES AND SHOULD SAVE THE SAVE HARMLESS PROVISION BE MAINTAINED OR CHANGED?

>> I THINK IT SHOULD BE MAINTAINED.

FIRST OF ALL, FOUNDATION AID IS A HUGE MESS.

GOD BLESS THE ROCKEFELLER INSTITUTE IN ISSUING THE REPORT AND COMING UP WITH A FLOW CHART TO TRY TO EXPLAIN HOW FOUNDATION AID WORKS.

IF YOU LOOK AT THE FLOW CHART, IT DOES NOT MAKE SENSE.

>> WE HAVE IT ON THE SCREEN RIGHT NOW.

>> MULTIPLE MOVING PIECES AND TRACTIONS AND ALL KINDS OF STUFF.

AS SOMEONE WHO SERVED ON A SCHOOL BOARD FOR MANY YEARS, I ASKED REPEATEDLY CAN SOMEONE EXPLAIN HOW FOUNDATION AID WORKS.

>> I WAS HOPING YOU COULD EXPLAIN IT.

>> I NEVER GOT A SATISFACTORY ANSWER.

NO.

IN TERMS OF THE SAVE HARMLESS PIECE, HERE IS THE THING.

SCHOOL DISTRICTS OPERATE LIKE NON-PROFIT BUSINESSES.

ANOTHER QUESTION I HAD AS A SCHOOL BOARD MEMBER, WHY DO WE HAVE TO KEEP RAISING TAXES EVERY YEAR?

AND THE REASONS BECAUSE THE COST TO PROVIDE THE SAME SERVICES GO UP.

THERE ARE FIXED COSTS IN DISTRICTS: ENERGY, HEALTH INSURANCE,CONTRACTUAL SALARY OBLIGATIONS, RIGHT?

SO THEY DO THE SAME THING EVERY YEAR.

YOU HAVE TO HAVE MORE MONEY OR HAVE YOU TO CUT SERVICES.

AND THAT'S A REALLY DIFFICULT POSITION FOR SCHOOL DISTRICTS TO BE IN.

SO IF YOU ARE GOING TO REMOVE-- IF YOU ARE GOING TO LOWER THE FLOOR FOR SOME DISTRICTS WITH STATE AID, THAT'S GOING TO BE A PROBLEM BECAUSE THEY'RE NOT GOING TO BE ABLE TO RAISE MORE TAXES UNLESS THEY CAN GET A SUPER MAJORITY AND GO TO THEIR CONSTITUENTS TO DO THAT BECAUSE-OF-THE-TAX CAP SYSTEM.

AND IT'S GOING TO MEAN THAT SERVICES ARE GOING TO BE CUT JUST TO MAINTAIN THE STATUS QUO.

CONCERNS ARE RAISED ABOUT EQUITY, BUT THE VAST MAJORITY OF STATE AID GO TO LOWER INCOME SCHOOL DISTRICTS, RIGHT?

PARTICULARLY IN OUR REGION, FOR INSTANCE.

SYRACUSE SCHOOL DISTRICTS GOT NEARLY HALF A BILLION DOLLARS IN STATE AID.

THAT'S ABOUT 80% OF THEIR OPERATING BUDGET.

THE OTHER SURROUNDING TOWNS, IT'S FLIPPED.

THEIR OPERATING BUDGETS ARE PREDOMINANTLY COMING FROM LOCAL TAXES, RIGHT AND STATE AID IS 5%, 10% 15% OF THEIR LOCAL BUDGET.

>> I APPRECIATE THAT LUKE TALKED ABOUT THE MUCH BROADER SCHEME OF SCHOOL FUNDING.

THIS PARTICULAR PIECE THAT WE ARE TALKING ABOUT, FOUNDATION AID CAME ABOUT AS A RESULT OF A LAWSUIT THAT WAS FILED IN 2007 TO PUSH FOR EQUITY IN FUNDING OF SCHOOLS.

AND SO THIS IS TO SORT OF PROVIDE MORE BALANCE BETWEEN THE FUNDING FOR LOWER INCOME SCHOOLS AND UPPER INCOME SCHOOLS.

AND PART OF THE PROBLEM IS THAT IT DOESN'T TAKE INTO ACCOUNT SCHOOL POVERTY, STUDENT POVERTY THAT IS, IN THE WAY THAT IT SHOULD.

IT DOESN'T TAKE INTO ACCOUNT THE NUMBER OF STUDENTS WHO ARE HOMELESS AND ALL OF THE OTHER KINDS OF ISSUES NAT LESS WELL TO DO SCHOOLS HAVE TO DEAL WITH.

BUT I WILL SAY THIS, THAT IT SEEMS THE DEBATE ABOUT THIS HAS CENTERED LARGELY AROUND NEW YORK CITY.

IN FACT, IF YOU LOOK AT THE FUNDING OF THE 25 BILLION, ROUGHLY $9 BILLION GOES TO NEW YORK CITY ALONE AND YET UPSTATE SCHOOLS HAVE A WHOLE SLEW OF OTHER PROBLEMS THAT CONVERGE ON SCHOOLS, INCLUDING THE FENTANYL CRISIS, THE LIMITED ACCESS TO INTERNET SERVICES AND ALSO HEALTHCARE.

SO IF YOU ARE GOING TO TALK ABOUT HOMELESSNESS FOR NEW YORK CITY, LET'S TALK ABOUT ALL OF THESE OTHER ISSUES FOR UPSTATE SCHOOLS.

>> LISA.

>> I HAVE A QUESTION.

I GUESS I'M PLEASED TO HEAR THAT SOMEONE WHO ACTUALLY KNOWS WAY MORE ABOUT THIS THAN I DO, SOUNDS LIKE BOTH OF YOU DO, AGREE.

LIKE EVERYTHING ELSE IN NEW YORK GOVERNMENT, THIS IS INCREDIBLY COMPLICATED.

LIKE RIDICULOUSLY COMPLICATED.

SO I'M GLAD TO HEAR THAT'S BEEN REAFFIRMED.

BUT MY QUESTION IS WHAT ABOUT THE ONE THIRD OF SCHOOL DISTRICTS IN THE STATE THAT HAVE EXCESSES, YOU KNOW, ABOVE WHAT THEY'RE ALLOWED TO HOLD UNDER STATE LAW EVERY YEAR.

>> THAT SHOULDN'T HAPPEN.

THE CONTROVERSIAL DOES AN ACCOUNTING-- THE COMPTROLLER DOES AN ACTING OF THAT.

THERE IS A CAP ON HOW MUCH YOU CAN PUT IN RESERVE FUNDS.

THAT'S 4% OF THEIR BUDGET.

THAT SHOULD BE ENFORCED NO DOUBT.

THE IDEA THAT SCHOOL DISTRICTS SHOULDN'T HAVE THE RESERVES, I DISAGREE WITH.

WHY DO YOU HAVE THE RESERVES?

BECAUSE IT HELPS YOU MANAGE YOUR MONEY BETTER.

FOR INSTANCE, SCHOOL BUSES ARE EXPENSIVE.

IF YOU WAIT UNTIL A SCHOOL BUS PENSACOLA BUFFALOES OUT, THAT'S 80 TO $100,000 YOU HAVE TO SPEND IF YOU BUY IT LIKE YOU BUY A CAR AND GET A LOAN, HAVE YOU TO PAY THE COST OF IT AND INTEREST.

YOU CAN USE INSTEAD YOUR RESERVE FUNDING TO COME UP WITH A PLAN LIKE WE DID IN MY DISTRICT TO ROTATE YOUR SCHOOL BUSS ON A SYSTEM, USE THE RESERVE FUNDING TO PAY CASH TO GET THE SCHOOL BUSES AND YOU SAVE MONEY AND THAT'S GOOD.

I DIDN'T COME UP WITH THAT.

THAT WAS JOE BARRATO WHO IS ONE OF THE BEST IN THE BUSINESS.

>> I'M VOTING FOR LUKE.

TARA THIS IDEA OF THE RESERVE MONEY, I MEAN YOU MAKE A GOOD POINT LISA THAT IF YOU HAVE IN EXCESS OF THAT RESERVE, SHOULD THAT THEN COME OUT OF THE BASIC FLOOR OF THE SAVE HARMLESS PROVISION?

>> I THINK IT SHOULD BECAUSE YOU KNOW, IT'S VERY CLEAR HOW MUCH YOU CAN PUT IN RESERVES.

AND SO ONCE YOU REACH THAT CEILING, THEN AUTOMATICALLY I THINK THAT SHOULD GO BACK INTO A GENERAL FUND THAT IS THEN EQUITABLY IF YOU CAN FIGURE OUT THE FUNDING SYSTEM, EQUITABLY DISTRIBUTED TO SCHOOLS THAT DON'T HAVE THAT CAP.

AND IT SOUNDS LIKE THE ORIGINAL INTENT WAS THAT THIS WOULD BE REVISITED EF YEAR SO, YOU KNOW, MAYBE THIS YEAR YOU HAVE ABOVE THAT 4%.

NEXT YEAR YOU DON'T.

SO YOU ARE NOT LOSING ANY MONEY I REALLY DO THINK IT SHOULD GO BACK INTO A GENERAL FUND WHERE IT IS EQUITABLY DISTRIBUTED AS LONG AS EVERY YEAR IT IS BEING REVISITED.

>> AND FURTHERMORE, I AGREE, AND FURTHERMORE, MY PROBLEM WITH YOUR ARGUMENT IS THAT IT INCREASES AND INCREASES AND INCREASES.

THE BUDGETS JUST GO UP, UP, UP, UP.

>> AND IF YOU HAVE RESERVE FUNDS, TO ME, THAT MEANS YOU DIDN'T NEED THOSE FUNDS, THAT THEY WERE NOT EXPENDED AND SO FOR DISTRICTS THAT RAN A DEFICIT, WHY NOT REALLOCATE THEM APPROPRIATELY?

>> AND ONE OF THE INTERESTING THINGS AND PRETTY MIND BOGGLING THINGS, A LOT OF THIS IS BASED ON DATA THAT IS 25 YEARS OLD.

YOU MENTIONED POVERTY.

WE ARE TALKING ABOUT THE 2000 CENSUS.

>> EXACTLY.

>> THAT'S NUTS IF I MAY SAY SO.

A MANHATTAN JURY IS DECIDING THE FATE OF DANIEL PENNY, A FORMER MARINE WHO INTERVENED WHEN A DISTURBED MAN WAS ACTING INCOHERENTLY-- SOME THOUGHT DANGEROUSLY-- ON THE NEW YORK CITY SUBWAY.

PENNY PUT JORDAN NEELY IN A CHOKEHOLD FOR 6 MINUTES.

WITH MANSLAUGHTER AND NEGLIGENT HOMICIDE.

PENNY IS WHITE, NEELY BLACK.

SOME PEOPLE CALL PENNY A HERO, OTHERS A MURDERER.

I'M WONDERING, IS THIS JUST VIGILANTISM WHEN SOMEONE DOES IT ON THE SUBWAY OR IS THIS SOMEONE WHO IS REALLY CONCERNED ABOUT PUBLIC SAFETY?

>> YEAH, I DON'T THINK THAT IT IS VIGILANTISM AND I ALSO DON'T THINK THAT THIS HAS A VERY STRONG RACIAL COMPONENT TO IT.

I WILL SAY THIS, THAT I AM NOT UNSYMPATHETIC TO THE FACT THAT YOU HAD HOWEVER MANY PASSENGERS WHO WERE ENCLOSED IN A SMALL SPACE ON A MOVING TRAIN AND SO THEY REALLY DIDN'T HAVE A LOT OF OPTIONS AS TO WHERE AND HOW THEY COULD RETREAT.

HOWEVER, HERE IS THE PROBLEM THAT I HAVE.

THAT SIMPLY BEING FEARFUL OF SOMEONE WHO IS HOMELESS, SOMEONE WHO IS ENGAGED IN DISORDERLY CONDUCT, SOMEONE WHO IS IN THE MIDDLE OF A DRUG PSYCHOSIS OR OTHER KIND OF MENTAL BREAKDOWN, FEAR OF THAT ALONE CANNOT BE A JUSTIFICATION FOR USING A CHOKE HOLD WITH A THREAT OF COSTING THAT PERSON HIS OR HER LIFE.

AND IN THIS CASE, THE CHOKE HOLD WAS USED FOR UP TO SIX MINUTES, INCLUDING A FULL MINUTE AFTER THE INDIVIDUAL HAD LOST CONSCIOUSNESS IS.

HERE IS WHAT THE OTHER THING IS.

I POURED OVER A LOT OF THE WITNESS TESTIMONY AND HAVE BEEN UNABLE TO FIND WHERE ANY OF THE WITNESSES STATED THAT THERE WAS AN OVERT THREAT MADE TO THE PASSENGERS THAT HE THREW GARBAGE AT THE PASSENGERS, THAT HE SAID HE WAS READY TO DIE, AND THEN ONE PERSON NOTED THAT HE HAD SOILED HIS PANTS.

NONE OF THOSE THINGS REALLY STRIKE ME AS AN EMINENT THREAT.

AND THEY COULD AT LEAST HAVE MOVED TO ANOTHER SEAT.

SO THAT IS SORT OF MY ISSUE THAT THIS, I WAS AFRAID, AND THEREFORE THESE ACTIONS ARE SOMEHOW JUSTIFIED.

>> IF HE-- I MEAN HE HAS BEEN CHARGED.

HE IS ON TRIAL.

BY THE TIME THIS SHOW AIRS, WE COULD HAVE A VERDICT OR A HUNG JURY.

BUT WHAT DOES IT SAY TO OTHER PEOPLE WHO MIGHT WANT TO STEP IN AND HELP ON A SUBWAY TRAIN BECAUSE IT CAN BE FEARFUL ON A SUBWAY TRAIN, YOU KNOW, WHAT DOES IT SAY TO OTHER PEOPLE?

I'M NOT GOING HELP ANYBODY OUT BECAUSE I'M AFRAID I WILL BE... >> COULD I JUST FOLLOW UP WITH THAT QUICKLY ON THE CHOKE HOLD PIECE AND SAY THAT NEW YORK CITY-- NEW YORK STATE AFTER THE DEATH OF ERIC GARNER BARRED LAW ENFORCEMENT FROM USING THE CHOKE HOLD SO IT'S NOT A QUESTION OF WHETHER TO STEP IN OR NOT, BUT IT WAS A KIND OF A LETHAL FORCE THAT WAS USED BY A FORMER MARINE PERSON WHO SHOULD HAVE KNOWN BETTER.

SO, YES, DO SOMETHING, BUT DON'T DO WHAT YOU KNOW IS GOING TO RISK THE PERSON'S LIFE.

>> LOOK, IT'S A REALLY TOUGH CASE.

NINA, YOU MAKE A REALLY GOOD POINT, THE MORE I LOOK INTO IT, THE MORE IT SOUNDS LIKE ONE OF THE ISSUES WAS FOR HOW LONG THIS WENT ON, RIGHT?

IN ADDITION TO PERHAPS BEING THE WRONG KIND OF INTERVENTION.

BUT I ALSO STRUGGLE WITH THE FACT THAT I WANT SOMEONE TO INTERVENE, YOU KNOW, ON MY BEHALF.

SO TO ME THIS MIGHT BE A CASE ABOUT A MATTER OF DEGREE WHERE I COME OUT BOTTOM LINE IS I TRULY THINK IT'S IN THE RIGHT PLACE, IN THE HANDS OF THE JURY.

THIS IS WHAT JURIES ARE CREATED FOR.

THIS IS WHAT THEY DO.

AND THEY GET TO HEAR ALL THE 269 AND EVIDENCE AND I GUESS I JUST PRAY FOR THEM BECAUSE THEY HAVE A VERY DIFFICULT AND MOMENTOUS DECISION TO MAKE.

>> I'M CURIOUS WITH YOUR EXPERTISE, WHAT YOU THINK IN REGARDS TO THE NEGLIGENT HOMICIDE VERSUS MANSLAUGHTER, RIGHT?

IT SEEMS TO ME LIKE THE PERPETRATOR, ALLEGED PERPETRATOR, WHO I DO HAVE SOME EMPATHY FOR, I HAVE THE MOST EMPATHY FOR THE PERSON WHO LOST THEIR LIFE BUT HAVING WORKED SECURITY AND PROGRAMMED TO THINK THAT WAY, FIRST OF ALL, YOU ARE THINKING OF EXITS AND YOU HAVE NO EXITS WHEN YOU ARE CONFINED.

THAT'S A DIFFICULT SITUATION.

I THINK NINA IS RIGHT.

USING A CHOKE HOMED WAS NOT BEST F. THIS THIS PERSON CAN EXECUTE A CHOKE HOLD LIKE THAT, THEY CAN EXECUTE A FULL NELSON WHICH IS A WAY TO RESTRAIN SOMEBODY WITHOUT IMPEDING THEIR BREATHING.

SO IT DID SEEM TO YOUR POINT MAYBE THERE WAS A FAILURE TO RECOGNIZE THOSE ACTIONS WOULD LEAD TO THE LOSS OF LIFE.

WAS IT RECKLESS AND ELEVATED TO MANSLAUGHTER?

WE ARE NOT THERE.

WE DON'T HAVE THE DIRECT EVIDENCE.

HOW SHOULD THE LAY PERSON THINK ABOUT THIS?

>> I THINK THE WAY I READ THE EVIDENCE IS IT SOUNDS LIKE THERE WAS A POINT IN WHICH IT MIGHT HAVE CROSSED THE LINE INTO RECKLESSNESS INCLUDING BECAUSE THERE WERE BYSTANDERS TRYING TO GET HIM TO STOP.

THE TRAIN DOORS DID OPEN AND HE CONTINUED TO-- THIS IS THE TESTIMONY.

>> SO TARA, THE MAN WAS CLEARLY MENTALLY ILL AND THAT'S A REAL PROBLEM.

THE CITY AND ALL CITIES HAVE TO HAVE SOME WAY TO DEAL WITH MENTAL ILLNESS.

I WONDER HOW YOU BALANCE THAT WITH PUBLIC SAFETY.

ANY THOUGHTS ON THAT?

>> WELL, FIRST AND FOREMOST, YOU HAVE-- YOU SORT OF EXPLAIN TO THE PUBLIC A PROCEDURE FOR HOW TO RESPOND AND WHAT I MEAN BY THAT IS MOST OF THESE PEOPLE WERE PROBABLY PEOPLE WHO RIDE THE SUBWAY EVERY DAY.

AND IF YOU RIDE THE SUBWAY IN ANY MAJOR CITY, YOU KNOW YOU ARE PROBABLY GOING TO, AT SOME POINT, BE IN A CAR WITH SOMEONE WHO IS MENTALLY ILL AND ACTING OUT.

THAT'S JUST REALITY.

SO PUBLIC SAFETY ANNOUNCEMENTS, JUST LIKE YOU DO TODAY.

IF X HAPPENS, THIS IS THE PROCEDURE YOU SHOULD FOLLOW.

AND THAT THEN PUTS ALL OF THE PASSENGERS IN A SENSE, SORT OF IN THE SAME POSITION AND PUTS SOMEONE WITH THE TRAINING THAT PENNY HAD, IN A GREATER POSITION.

>> GOING TO HAVE TO LEAVE THAT RIGHT THERE BECAUSE WE HAVE TO GET TO OUR AS AND FS.

NINA YOUR F. >> OF COURSE, AMONG OTHER THINGS, ELON MUSK AND THE PLANS TARGET THE ELIMINATION OF A HALF TRILLION IN ANNUAL EXPENDITURES THAT ARE UNAUTHORIZED BY CONGRESS.

AT THE TOP OF THE LIST OF PROGRAMS WHOSE CONGRESSIONAL AUTHORIZATION HAS EXPIRED ARE VETERANS HEALTHCARE, ONGOING TREATMENT AND DRUG DEVELOPMENT FOR OPIOID USE, HOUSING ASSISTANCE ALSO STUDENT LOAN PROGRAMS, HEAD START, CHILD CARE FUNDING.

THESE ARE ALL PROGRAMS THAT MAINLY BENEFIT THE PATRIOTIC WORKING CLASS VOTERS WHO VOTED FOR TRUMP AND PUT HIM BACK IN OFFICE SO STAY TUNED.

>> I'M GOING TO PILE ON TO DOGE AND MUSK AND CRITICIZE THEIR IDEA OF ABOLISHING OURBY ANNUAL CLOCK CHANGES.

-- BIANNUAL CLOCK CHANGES.

A 2022 POLL INDICATED SUPPORT, AMERICANS ARE FAIRLY EQUALLY DIVIDED WHETHER WE SHOULD GO TO DAYLIGHT SAVINGS TIME ALL THE TIME OR STANDARD TIME ALL THE TIME AND WE HAVE TRIED TO GO TO PERMANENT DAYLIGHT SAVINGS TIME AND IMMEDIATELY TURNED BACK FROM THAT.

AND WITH GOOD REASON, BECAUSE EITHER USING EITHER YEAR ROUND IS WORSE THAN THE CURRENT SYSTEM.

>> LUKE.

I'M SORRY, TARA.

>> MY F GOES TO THE POST PRESIDENTIAL ELECTION RESURGENCE OF NEO-NAZI AND WHITE SUPREMACIST MARCHES AND RALLIES.

SINCE DONALD TRUMP WAS ELECTED PRESIDENT AGAIN, THERE HAVE BEEN HUNDREDS OF THESE MARCHES AND RALLIES AROUND THE UNITED STATES.

>> LUKE.

>> MY F GOES TO THE U.N.

SUMMIT ON PLASTIC POLLUTION WHICH ENDED THIS WEEK WITHOUT A GLOBAL TREATY.

400 MILLION TONS OF PLASTIC ARE PRODUCED EACH YEAR.

THESE INCLUDE OVER 3,000 TOXIC CHEMICALS THAT ARE CURRENTLY UNREGULATED THAT GO INTO OUR BODIES AND INTO OUR LANDFILLS BECAUSE ONLY 10% OF PLASTIC IS RECYCLED GLOBALLY.

>> As.

>> I RECENTLY DISCOVERED ONE OF CENTRAL NEW YORK'S BEST KEPT SECRETS: THE SYRACUSE COMMUNITY HEALTH CENTER THAT IS NOW HOUSED IN A NEW STATE-OF-THE-ART 56,000 SQUARE FEET BUILDING.

THE CENTER IS LED BY Dr. REED AND HIS STELLAR STAFF.

IT'S A ONE-STOP SHOP WHERE PATIENTS CAN GO FOR PRETTY MUCH EVERYTHING FROM DENTAL CARE TO BEHAVIORAL HEALTHCARE AND SYRACUSE IS ON THE COME UPANCE.

>> MY A GOES TO THE 190 MEMBERS OF THE SOUTH KOREAN ASSEMBLY WHO RUSHED TO GATHER THIS WEEK AND UNANIMOUSLY RESCIND THE SHOCKING DECLARATION OF MARTIAL LAW BY THE COUNTRY'S PRESIDENT.

THIS INCLUDED 19 MEMBERS OF THE PRESIDENT'S OWN PARTY.

>> MY A GOES TO ARCOPHONE RECORDS AND FOUNDER RICH MARTIN FOR THE RECORDINGS OF LEWIS VASTNER, BELIEVED TO BE THE EARLIEST AFRICAN-AMERICAN COUNTRY MUSIC ARTIST.

>> TO CHASE WHO BECAME THE FIRST KNOWN TRANSGENDER PERSON TO ARGUE A CASE BEFORE THE SUPREME COURT.

HE ADVOCATED FOR GREATER CIVIL RIGHTS PROTECTIONS FOR TRANSGENDER CHILDREN.

>> THANK YOU VERY MUCH.

THANK YOU FOR JOINING US THIS EVENING.

FOR COMMENTS YOU CAN WRITE TO THE ADDRESS ON YOUR SCREEN.

IF YOU WOULD LIKE TO VIEW THE SHOW AGAIN YOU CAN VIEW IT ONLINE AT WCNY.ORG.

I'M DAVID CHANATRY, FOR ALL OF US AT IVORY TOWER, HAVE A GOOD NIGHT.