ON THIS MONTH'S EDITION OF CONNECT NEW YORK, WE EXPLORE SOME OF THE ISSUES AND CONCERNS OF THE STATE'S INDIGENOUS PEOPLE.

DON'T GO ANYWHERE.

♪ ♪ ♪ ♪ >> WELCOME TO "CONNECT NEW YORK."

I'M DAVID LOMBARDO, HOST OF WCNY'S THE CAPITOL PRESSROOM, A DAILY PUBLIC RADIO SHOW, BROADCASTING FROM THE STATE CAPITOL.

ON TODAY'S SHOW WE'RE DISCUSSING SOME OF THE ISSUES FACING INDIGENOUS PEOPLE IN NEW YORK, AND TO DO THAT, WE'RE JOINED IN THE STUDIO BY JOE HEATH - GENERAL COUNSEL FOR THE ONONDAGA NATION - MISSY BARRINGER - CHIEF OPERATING OFFICER FOR THE CAYUGA NATION'S LAKESIDE ENTERPRISES - NEIL PATTERSON, JUNIOR - ASSISTANT DIRECTOR OF THE CENTER FOR NATIVE PEOPLES AND THE ENVIRONMENT AT SUNY ESF - AND SCOTT MANNING STEVENS - DIRECTOR OF THE NATIVE AMERICAN AND INDIGENOUS STUDIES PROGRAM AT SYRACUSE UNIVERSITY.

SO, I WANT TO START WITH YOU, NEIL, AND WHEN WE TALK ABOUT INDIGENOUS PEOPLE IN NEW YORK, WHO ARE WE TALKING ABOUT?

BECAUSE THIS IS NOT A MONOLITH WHEN WE THINK ABOUT NATIVE PEOPLE IN NEW YORK BUT I IMAGINE THERE ARE SOME COMMONALITIES.

WHAT DOES IT MEAN TO TALK ABOUT INDIGENOUS NEW YORKERS?

>> THE STATE OF NEW YORK, THERE IS LEGALLY SPEAKING, THERE ARE NINE STATE RECOGNIZED INDIAN NATIONS.

SEVEN OF THOSE ARE COMPRISING OF THE HAUDENOSAUNEE PEOPLE, BUT THE DEFINITION OF INDIGENOUS HAS BEEN BANTERED ABOUT FOR DECADES.

TYPICALLY AT THE UNITED NATIONS LEVEL AND REALLY REFERS TO A GROUP OF PEOPLE WITH THEIR OWN LANGUAGE, GOVERNANCE, CUSTOMS, SO FORTH.

>> NEIL BROUGHT UP THE IDEA OF DEFINITIONS AND WORDS REALLY MATTER WHEN WE TALK ABOUT NATIVE ISSUES AND NATIVE PEOPLE.

WHAT ARE SOME OF THE IMPORTANT VOCABULARY THAT WE SHOULD BE THINKING ABOUT WHEN TALKING ABOUT INDIGENOUS PEOPLE IN NEW YORK?

>> I THINK FIRST WE HAVE TO REMEMBER THAT WORDS LIKE RACE AND INDIGENOUS, WHICH ARE OFTEN AND BOTH OF THEM HAVE SPECIFIC HISTORIES AND THEY CHANGE THROUGH THE CENTURIES.

SO AS NEIL WAS SAYING, THERE ARE, YOU KNOW, CHANGES AT THE KIND OF POLICY LEVEL OF THE UNITED NATIONS.

THERE IS THE WAY IT'S USED COMMONLY.

BUT I ALWAYS LIKE TO THINK OF INDIGENOUS FROM ITS ROOTS IN ENGLISH CONNECTED WITH THE PEOPLE WHO ARE NATIVE TO A CERTAIN PLACE OR LAND.

AND SO WHEN YOU TALK ABOUT THE INDIGENOUS POPULATION, YOU MEAN PEOPLE WHO HAVE A LONG STANDING RELATIONSHIP TO THAT PLACE THAT DID NOT COME THERE FROM SOMEWHERE ELSE; THAT THAT IS WHERE THEY SET THEIR ORIGINS FROM.

AND THAT WOULD APPLY, OF COURSE, TO THE INDIGENOUS PEOPLES OF NORTH AMERICA.

SO, FOR THE HAUDENOSAUNEE, YOU KNOW, THESE TERM LIMITS CHANGE, OF COURSE, IN SCHOOL A LOT OF PEOPLE WOULD HAVE LEARNED THE IROQUOIS NATION?

AND WE SAY HAUDENOSAUNEE NOW BECAUSE THE IS THE TRADITIONAL NAME WITHIN OUR CULTURES FOR THAT.

I'M MOHAWK.

THAT WORD ITSELF IS NOT PART OF MOHAWK CULTURE.

THAT'S AN OUTSIDER TIME.

WE CALL OURSELVES PEOPLE OF THE FLINT, BUT IN COMMON PARLANCE, WILL YOU HEAR MOHAWK AS WILL YOU STILL HEAR PEOPLE SAY AMERICAN INDIANIAN, NATIVE AMERICAN.

I PROFESSOR INDIGENOUS AS A-- I PREFER INDIGENOUS AS A GENERAL TERM FOR PEOPLE OF NORTH AMERICA OR WHATEVER COUNTRY YOU ARE TALKING ABOUT AND THEN I THINK IT'S BEST TO BE AS SPECIFIC AS ONE CAN BE BY NATION.

SO THE HAUDENOSAUNEE AS A CONFEDERACY, I'M FROM THE GEHENANAGA AND SO THERE IS A SHIFTING GROUND TO THE TERMS.

>> THERE ARE NINE RECOGNIZED NATIONS IN NEW YORK STATE.

ARE THERE ANY COMMONALITIES IN TERMS OF CONCERNS OF THE NATIONS OR SHOULD WE THINK OF ALL OF THE NATIONS AS UNIQUE GROUPS OF PEOPLE WITH UNIQUE CONCERNS TO THEIR PEOPLE AND THE COMMUNITIES THAT THEY LIVE IN?

>> I THINK THERE IS DEFINITELY SOME COMMONALITIES THAT WE ALL FACE.

AS INDIGENOUS PEOPLE, CLEARLY LAND RIGHTS, THE THINGS THAT WE DO, PROGRESS THAT WE'VE MADE, AND HOW, YOU KNOW, WHAT WE NEED TO DO TO MOVE FORWARD.

AND I THINK WHILE THERE ARE THINGS THAT WE ALL HAVE IN COMMON, I THINK AT THE SAME TIME WE EACH HAVE OUR OWN TRADITIONS THAT WE HOLD AND KEEP.

AND THEY'RE IMPORTANT AND THEY HELP TO-- THEY'RE PART OF WHO WE ARE.

>> PART OF THE ISSUE OF LAND RATES YOU BROUGHT UP WHICH IS AN ISSUE IN NEW YORK FOR THE CAYUGA NATION PEOPLE, THE USUAL THAT YOU HAVE BEEN FACING FOR YEARS.

>> YES.

>> WE HAVE BEEN BATTLING FOR OUR RESERVATION LAND WHICH IS 64,015 ACRES AROUND THE, THINK OF IT AS A HORSESHOE OVER THE TOP OF CAYUGA LAKE.

AND IT'S VERY CLEAR THAT WE HAVE BEEN BATTLING IT FROM A LEGAL PERSPECTIVE FOR YEARS AND YEARS.

AND AT THE POINT WHERE WE SAW THAT WE WEREN'T GOING TO BE GETTING IT BACK THROUGH THOSE MEANS, WE KNEW THAT THE PATH FORWARD WAS WE HAD TO ECONOMICALLY REEMERGE AND START BUYING OUR LAND BACK.

SO THAT'S REALLY WHAT WE HAVE DONE.

IN 2003, WE REEMERGED ECONOMICALLY AS A NATION AND HAVE STARTED TO BUY OUR OWN LAND BACK SO THAT WE COULD HAVE OUR NATIVE LANDS.

>> WELL, JOE, COMING FROM THE ONONDAGA NATION WHERE YOU SERVE AS THE GENERAL COUNSEL, WHAT DO YOU SEE AS THE IMPORTANCE OF HAVING A UNIQUE SET OF PROPERTY FOR THE PEOPLE THERE?

WHAT IS THE DIFFERENCE AS OPPOSED TO THE EXPERIENCE?

>> AS SCOTT EXPLAINED, INDIGENOUS PEOPLE ARE VERY CLOSELY TIED TO THE LAND THAT THEY'VE BEEN STEWARDS OF FOR GENERATIONS.

HERE IN NEW YORK, THE HAUDENOSAUNEE HAVE BEEN HERE FOR WELL OVER A THOUSAND YEARS.

IT'S OVER A THOUSAND YEARS AGO THAT THE CONFEDERACY WAS FORMED ON THE SHORES OF ONONDAGA LAKE.

AND SO MY INVOLVEMENT WITH THE RETURN OF THE THOUSAND ACRES AND IT'S REALLY 1023 OVER THE LAST THREE YEARS HAS REALLY HELPED ME UNDERSTAND HOW IMPORTANT LAND RETURN IS AS WE TRY TO ADDRESS THE HISTORIC QUALMS THAT WE HAVE VISITED UPON INDIGENOUS PEOPLE.

LAND IS CENTRAL TO THE CULTURE AND DEFINITION OF INDIGENOUS PEOPLE.

>> BEFORE WE MOVE ON WITH OUR DISCUSSION, I WANT TO JAI-ALAI THE HISTORIC AGREEMENT ANNOUNCED LAST SUMMER THAT JOE JUST REFERENCED.

OUR PRODUCER, SUSES AN BITTER HAS THIS TO.

>> THE DEC AND THE DEPARTMENT OF INTERIORS U.S.

FISH AND WILDLIFE LED THE SIGNING OF THE RESOLUTION THAT DIRECTED HONEYWELL TO TRANSFER THIS LAND IN THE TULLY VALLEY TO THE ONONDAGA NATION.

IT'S MORE THAN A THOUSAND ACRES IN TOTAL RETURNED TO THE ONONDAGA NATION.

AND THAT INCLUDES 250-ACRE PARCEL IN LAFAYETTE, AND ABOUT 750 ACRES IN TULLY.

>> THIS WAS OUR TERRITORY, A BIG STRIP COMING RIGHT THROUGH, YOU KNOW, THROUGH NEW YORK FROM ONTARIO RIGHT DOWN INTO PENNSYLVANIA AND BEYOND.

BUT THIS WAS OUR MAIN AREA HERE THAT WE HUNTED AND FISHED AND TOOK CARE OF OUR PEOPLE.

BEAUTIFUL LAND, YOU SEE THE STREAM BACK HERE, IT'S CLEAN.

YOU CAN SEE IT'S NOT-- IT'S A SMALL TRIBUTARY TO THE ONONDAGA CREEK WHICH GOES THROUGH THE NATION.

IT'S GOOD TO KNOW THAT WE ARE GETTING SOME BACK THAT IS NOT POLLUTED.

>> IT STARTS ACTUALLY WITH THE SUPER FUND LAWSUIT AROUND ONONDAGA LAKE.

THERE ARE TWO HALFS TO A SUPER FUND ACTION.

ONE IS TO FORCE THE RESPONSIBLE CORPORATIONS TO CLEAN UP-- ALTHOUGH THAT DIDN'T HAPPEN HERE.

THE SECOND HALF OF SUPER FUND, THE NATURAL RESOURCE DAMAGE AND ASSESSMENT, WHEN THE POLLUTER DOESN'T CLEAN UP ALL OF ITS WASTE AND POLLUTION, THAT THAT POLLUTION WILL CAUSE HARM INTO THE FUTURE.

AND SO A CERTAIN AMOUNT OF MONEY IS AGREED UPON TO MAKE UP FOR THAT FUTURE DAMAGE AND, IN THIS SITUATION, THE TRUSTEES, THAT'S THE DEPARTMENT OF ENVIRONMENTAL CONSERVATION AND THE U.S.

FISH AND WILDLIFE, TOLD HONEYWELL THAT THEY HAD TO ALSO IMPLEMENT 19 DIFFERENT PROJECTS.

THIS IS ONE OF THOSE PROJECTS.

>> THE FUNDING AND IMPLEMENTATION OF THE PROJECTS IS THE RESULT OF LEGAL SETTLEMENT WITH HONEYWELL, FOLLOWING THE PAST RELEASES OF MERCURY AND OTHER HAZARDOUS SUBSTANCES TO ONONDAGA LAKE, ITS TRIBUTARIES AND UPLANDS.

THE RESOLUTION STATES THAT THE NATION WILL CREATE A HEALING AND CARE TAKING PLAN IN CONSULTATION WITH THE NEW YORK STATE DEC AND THE DEPARTMENT OF INTERIOR.

THERE IS NO REQUIREMENT FOR THAT TO BE A PUBLIC PROCESS, IN PART TO PROTECT THE LOCATIONS OF CULTURALLY OR SPIRITUALLY SENSITIVE AREAS.

>> AT FIRST THE PLAN WAS TO RETURN IT TO THE STATE WITH THE POSSIBILITY OF IT GOING TO THE NATION.

AND IT TOOK QUITE A FEW YEARS OF INTERNAL DISCUSSION WITHIN THE NATION TO DECIDE CAN WE ACCEPT THIS LAND WHEN THEY'RE SO ADD AMOUNT ABOUT TELLING US WHAT WE HAVE TO DO ON THIS LAND AND THEN WE HAVE ACCEPTED, BECAUSE THE LAND AND THE WATER AND THE FISH ARE SO IMPORTANT.

>> IT'S A REALLY GOOD THING EVEN TO THINK THAT THEY ARE GIVING LAND BACK, YOU KNOW.

BUT THERE IS STILL A RESISTANCE THERE.

THEY WANT TO-- YES, WE CAN GIVE YOU THE THOUSAND ACRES BUT YOU CAN'T DO THIS AND YOU GOTTA DO THIS AND THIS IS WHAT WE HAVE TO DO AND IT'S LIKE-- THEY WANT TO HAVE COMPLETE CONTROL OVER WHAT WE DO.

AND I SAID, WELL, I DON'T THINK DEC OR THE STATE SHOULD BE TELLING US WHAT TO DO, HOW TO MANAGE THE LAND.

WE HAVE BEEN MANAGING IT FOR THOUSANDS OF YEARS BEFORE IT BECAME POLLUTED AS IT IS TODAY.

>> ONONDAGAS CAN CARE FOR THIS LAND MUCH BETTER THAN IT HAS BEEN CARED FOR OVER THE LAST 240 YEARS.

AND SO WE DON'T NEED GOVERNMENTS THAT CAN'T TAKE CARE OF WHAT THEY HAVE NOW TO BE TELLING THE NATION HOW TO BE STEWARDS.

THERE IS ALL THIS TALK ABOUT REP IETIONS-- REPARATIONS AS THERE NEEDS TO BE IN THIS COUNTRY.

WHEN YOU THINK OF REPARATIONS FOR INDIGENOUS PEOPLE, AT LEAST PARTICULARLY FOR THE ONONDAGA NATION, THAT MUST BE LAND.

MONEY IS NOT OF INTEREST TO THE NATION.

RETURN OF LAND AND CLEAN WATER ARE THE WAYS WE CAN MAKE SOME AMENDS FOR THE TREMENDOUS HARM AND THE LAND THEFT AND THE HORRIBLE ENVIRONMENTAL DAMAGE WE'VE DONE TO THIS LAND.

SO THIS IS THE FIRST STEP.

WE HOPE IT LEADS TO MANY MORE.

>> I'M VERY EXCITED TO SEE THIS IS HAPPENING; THAT THIS IS DEFINITELY AN HISTORIC-- I'M VERY PROUD TO BE PART OF THIS PROCESS AND I LOOK FORWARD TO WORKING WITH THE NATION, TAKING -- WORKING WITH THEM, NOT A RELATIONSHIP WHERE WE ARE DICTATING.

WE ARE GOING TO BE WORKING ON MUTUAL ENVIRONMENTAL CONCERNS.

>> THIS IS A BIG DEAL AND IT'S VERY GOOD START.

AND IT'S JUST AN AWESOME PIECE OF LAND, ALSO.

IT WAS OUR ECONOMY, THE LAND.

IT WAS THERE, IT WAS FOR US TO USE.

THE TIME WE HAVE A CEREMONY OR A WE ACKNOWLEDGE AND THANK FOR BEING ON EARTH.

WE ARE NOT GOING TO STRIP THE LAND.

WE ARE GOING TO MANAGE IT LIKE WE HAVE MANAGED IT FOR THOUSANDS OF YEARS.

>> SO, NEIL, THE IDEA OF RETURNING PROPERTY, IS THIS SOMETHING THAT IS UNIQUE TO THE ONONDAGA NATION OR IS THIS A CONCERN FOR INDIGENOUS PEOPLE ACROSS THE STATE?

>> WELL, YEAH, I THINK, YOU KNOW, GOING BACK TO, AGAIN, DEFINITIONS ABOUT THE TERM PROPERTY, RIGHT?

AND THAT IT IS NOT A TERM THAT IS REALLY IN THE LEXICON OF MOST INDIGENOUS PEOPLE AND CERTAINLY FOR HAUDENOSAUNEE PEOPLE.

IT IS COMMON PLIGHT THOUGH ACROSS IN WHICH PEOPLE HAVE BEEN DISPOSSESSED OF THEIR ACCESS AND THEIR CARE OF PLACE, SO I LIKE TO THINK ABOUT IT AS NOT PROPERTY BUT OF ACCESS AND CARE.

AND THIS IS HAPPENING MAINLY IN THE EAST WHERE A LOT OF NATIONS HAVE BEEN DISPOSSESSED.

AND IN THE CASE OF HAUDENOSAUNEE PEOPLE, WELL OVER 99.99% OF OUR TERRITORY HAS BEEN LOST.

>> YOU CAN PROBABLY ROUND THAT UP TO 100.

>> PRETTY MUCH CLOSE TO 100 AT THIS POINT.

AND WHAT IS INTERESTING, I'LL JUST ADD, THAT WE ARE IN SUCH A CRUCIAL MOMENT RIGHT NOW, CONSIDERING ALL OF THE CONCERN AROUND CLIMATE CHANGE AND THE CLIMATE CRISIS, THAT PEOPLE ARE LOOKING TOWARDS ENDING-- LOOKING TOWARDS INDIGENOUS CULTURES HOW THE CARE IS MANIFESTED, WHETHER THE RELATIONSHIPS BETWEEN PEOPLE AND LAND THAT MAKE INDIGENOUS COMMUNITIES SO UNIQUE AND AS A POTENTIAL-- UNFORTUNATELY, A POTENTIAL SILVER BULLET TO THE CLIMATE CRISIS BUT CERTAINLY A DIFFERENT WORLD VIEW THAT PEOPLE ARE SEEKING AT THIS MOMENT.

>> WELL, SCOTT, WHEN WE THINK ABOUT THE IMPORTANCE OF LAND, THEN, IS IT ABOUT SELF GOVERNANCE, THE WAY WE MIGHT THINK ABOUT TRADITIONAL WESTERN DEMOCRACY?

IS IT JUST ABOUT BEING ABLE TO USE THE LAND, HOW SOMEONE SEES FIT.

WHAT IS THE SIGNIFICANCE?

>> PLAYING OFF WHAT NEIL WAS JUST SAYING, A REAL SIGNIFICANT ASPECT OF OUR RELATIONSHIP TO THE LAND IS THE RELATIONSHIP; MEANING WE IN THE WESTERN TRADITION HEAR A LOT ABOUT PROPERTY RIGHTS AND BOUNDING LAND AND WHOSE PROPERTY YOU ARE ON, ET CETERA.

AND IN THAT SYSTEM, YOU CAN KIND OF DO WHAT YOU WANT WITH YOUR OWN LAND BECAUSE IT'S YOUR PROPERTY.

BUT WHEN WE THINK COLLECTIVELY OF INDIGENOUS LANDS, WHICH ARE SHARED COMMUNALLY, WE RECOGNIZE THAT OUR PRIMARY RELATIONSHIP TO THE LAND THAT WE HAVE A CUSTODIAL RELATIONSHIP, A DUTY, A RESPONSIBILITY TO THE LAND.

WE TAKE CARE OF THE LAND BECAUSE THE LAND SUSTAINS US.

IT'S A SYMBIOTIC RELATIONSHIP, NOT EXPLOITATIVE LIKE DIG THIS OUT, TAKE WHAT WE CAN, RUIN IT AND MOVE O.

STRIP MINING NOT PART OF OUR CULTURE.

AND THE SENSE OF USING PLACES IN AN UNSUSTAINABLE WAY COUNTERS THOUSANDS OF YEARS OF THINKING AROUND THINGS LIKE SEVEN GENERATIONS THINKING WHERE WHEN THE COMMUNITY IS FACED WITH A DECISION TO MAKE THAT WILL AFFECT ALL OF US, WE DON'T JUST THINK ABOUT HOW IT AFFECTS US RIGHT NOW.

WE COLLECTIVELY IMAGINE SEVEN GENERATIONS INTO THE FUTURE.

WILL WE BE LOOKING-- WILL WE BE LOOKED AT AS SHORT CITED AND DAMNED FOR THE MOMENT OR WILL WE BE PRAWZED FOR REALLY THINKING THIS THROUGH AND BE CONSIDERATE OF THE LAND AND OUR FUTURE GENERATIONS, SEVEN TIMES AHEAD.

AND I THINK THAT'S AN ETHOS OF SUSTAINABILITY THAT HAS BEEN PART OF OUR CULTURES SINCE BEFORE THE WORD SUSTAINABILITY WAS NEEDED.

>> HOW DO YOU THINK ABOUT STRIKING THAT BALANCE IN THE SENECA CAYUGA AREA IN THE SENSE THAT YOU ARE CARVING IT OUT PIECE BY PIECE AND IT'S AMIDST PEOPLE WHO MAY NOT SHARE THE SAME VALUES AND THEN YOU HAVE TO DEAL WITH OTHER REALITIES LIKE TRYING TO RAISE MONEY FOR THE NATION, TAKING GAMBLING OPPORTUNITIES, FOR EXAMPLE.

HOW DO YOU BALANCE ALL THOSE THINGS IN YOUR HEAD?

>> WELL, THERE IS CERTAINLY A LOT THAT GOES ON IN THERE, AND IN ALL OF OUR HEADS AS WE TRY AND DO THIS, AND LISTENING TO THESE GENTLEMEN, YOU KNOW, THEY'RE SO RIGHT ABOUT OUR CONNECTION TO THE LAND, AND UNFORTUNATELY FOR THE CAYUGA NATION, WE WERE-- WE DIDN'T HAVE A RESERVATION, RIGHT?

CAPTAIN SULLIVAN WAS SENT IN TRYING TO DESTROY THE CAYUGA CITIZENS.

FORTUNATELY WE WERE ABLE TO SAVE SOME FOLKS THAT PROLONGED OUR LIFELINE.

OTHERWISE WE WOULDN'T BE HERE ANYMORE.

AND I THINK JUST TRYING TO BALANCE THAT KNOWLEDGE AND TRYING TO GET OUR LAND BACKING-- TO GET OUR LAND BACK AND FINDING OUR WAY TO IT.

WE TRY TO BRING OUR CITIZENS HOME AS OFTEN AS WE CAN.

TO YOUR POINT, GETTING INTO GAMING FACILITIES, CIGARETTE PRODUCTION, CONVENIENT STORE, GAS SALES, TRYING TO TAKE ADVANTAGE OF THE THINGS THAT ARE OFFERED TO US SO THAT WE CAN BUY MORE LAND AND BRING MORE OF OUR PEOPLE BACK.

>> DOES IT FEEL LIKE A COMPROMISE IN ANY WAY, SHAPE OR FORM?

>> SOMETIMES, ABSOLUTELY.

BUT I THINK AT THE SAME TIME, AGAIN, WE ARE IN A, AS SCOTT MENTIONED, WE ARE IN THIS NEW ERA AND I THINK HAVE YOU TO FIND WAYS TO ADAPT TO THAT.

I THINK WE'VE SHOWN THAT WE HAVE DONE THAT FOR A VERY LONG TIME, RIGHT?

WE HAVE ADAPTED AND WE HAVE HAD TO.

AND IN SOME CASES, IN OUR CASE, WE HAVE HAD TO ASSIMILATE A BIT.

YOU MAY NOT LIKE IT.

BUT SOMETIMES YOU JUST HAVE TO DO THINGS IN ORDER TO MOVE FORWARD.

AND TRY TO LOOK TO THE SEVEN GENERATIONS FORWARD AND HOW CAN WE BRING ALL OF OUR LAND BACK FOR OUR FUTURE GENERATIONS.

>> SO MY DAY JOB, I SEE EVERYTHING THROUGH THE LENS OF THE STATE GOVERNMENT AND THAT MAKES ME CURIOUS WHAT YOU THINK, IF ANYTHING, HAS BEEN THE RESPONSE TO NATIVE ISSUES FOR GOVERNOR HOCHUL AT THE DIRECTION OF NEW YORK STATE.

AND JOE, YOU AND I IN THAT OTHER LIFE, HAVE SPOKEN A LITTLE BIT ABOUT GOVERNOR HOCHUL AND HER RELATIONSHIP WITH THE ONONDAGA NATION.

WHAT IS YOUR THOUGHT ON THE TONE SHE SET OVER THE LAST TWO YEARS?

>> WELL, I THINK SHE HAD SOME LEARNING TO DO WHEN SHE FIRST WAS FAIRLY UNEXPECTEDLY IN OFFICE.

SHE VETOED A COUPLE OF KEY BILLS, AND I THINK SHE NOW REGRETS.

BUT COMPARED TO THE LAST GOVERNOR, WHO NEVER MET WITH THE TRADITIONAL HAUDENOSAUNEE LEADER, NEVER IN HIS 12 OR HOWEVER MANY YEARS, SHE IS REALLY MAKING AN EFFORT.

SHE TULTLY VISITED THE ONONDAGA LONG HOUSE IN AUGUST, WHICH, AS FAR AS ANYBODY CAN REMEMBER, SHE HAS FINALLY ESTABLISHED A CABINET LEVEL POSITION THAT IS SOLELY TO BUILD THE RELATIONSHIP BETWEEN THE INDIGENOUS NATION AND THE STATE GOVERNMENT.

THERE IS A LOT OF REPAIR AND HEALING AND WORK TO BE DONE.

GIVEN THAT NEW YORK IS THE ORIGINAL STEALER, THE ORIGINAL THEFT.

THEY TOOK ALL OF THAT CAYUGA LAND ILLEGALLY.

THEY TOOK ALL ABOUT 32 ACRES OF THE ONEIDA LAND ILLEGALLY.

THEY TOOK 99% OF THE ONONDAGA LAND ILLEGALLY.

THEY KNEW THEY WERE DOING THAT.

AND WHEN YOU TAKE THAT MUCH LAND AWAY FROM INDIGENOUS CULTURES, IT'S INCREDIBLY DAMAGING.

SO THERE IS A LOT OF WORK TO DO.

MUCH MORE COOPERATION AND RESPECT, GUT I THINK THAT ALBANY IS BEGINNING TO UNDERSTAND THAT THERE IS AN IMPORTANCE AND BENEFIT TO BOTH GOVERNMENTS TO BUILD A BETTER GOVERNMENT-TO-GOVERNMENT RELATIONSHIP, TO UNDERSTAND THE TREATY RIGHTS OF THE HAUDENOSAUNEE AND TO WORK WITH US TO RETURN LAND.

>> WHEN YOU THINK ABOUT POLICIES EMANATING FROM ALBANY, ARE THERE THINGS THAT COULD BE DONE DIFFERENTLY OR SHOULD BE DONE DIFFERENTLY IN ALBANY IMPACTING INDIGENOUS PEOPLE?

>> SURE.

WHEN IT WAS SET FORTH IN TREATIES BETWEEN THE UNITED STATES AND THE HAUDENOSAUNEE, AND SO SORT OF ACTING INDEPENDENTLY, NOT CONSISTENT WITH, THE NON-INTERCOURSE ACT MAKING DEALS ON ITS OWN, WITHOUT REALIZING THAT THEIR RELATIONSHIP IS A TREATY RELATIONSHIP INHERENTLY.

THEY ARE ESSENTIALLY THE LITTLE BROTHER OF THE FATHER WHO MADE THE AGREEMENT WITH OUR FOREFATHERS, IF I COULD USE THAT WEIRD TERM FOR US.

BUT OUR LEADERS AT THE TIME.

AND, YOU KNOW, I JUST GREW UP IN A HOUSE WHERE, YOU KNOW, RIGHT FROM GOVERNOR ROCKEFELLER, I KNEW EVERY SINGLE GOVERNOR THAT WAS IN ALBANY.

WE DISCUSSED IT AT THE DINNER TABLE.

AND MOSTLY WE TALKED ABOUT THAT, IN MY FAMILY, HOW THEY WANTED OUR LAND.

I MEAN THAT WAS, FOR US, THE REALITY IS THAT ALBANY CONSIDERS INDIGENOUS PEOPLE A PROBLEM.

AND IT IS THE ESSENTIAL INDIAN PROBLEM THAT IS ALSO FOUND IN THE HISTORY OF THE UNITED STATES >> WELL, MISSY, THE HAUDENOSAUNEE NATION HAS HAD CHALLENGES INTERNALLY AND EXTERNALLY.

DO YOU FEEL STATE SHOULD BE PLAYING A BIGGER ROLE IN YOUR INTERNAL STRUGGLES OR THE PROBLEMS YOU HAVE HAD WITH NEIGHBORS?

>> I DEFINITELY THINK WE DON'T WANT THEM INVOLVED FROM A GOVERNMENTAL PERSPECTIVE OR OVERSIGHT.

WE ARE OUR OWN GOVERNMENT.

WE HAVE OUR OWN GOVERNMENT.

AND I THINK, YOU KNOW,KNOWING THOUGH THAT I THINK TO SOME EXTENT, GIVEN WHERE WE ARE, WE ARE LOOKING TO LOOK TO OUR COMMUNITIES THAT SURROUND US, RIGHT, THAT WE ARE A PART OF?

AND LOOKING FORWARD TO TRY TO BUILDING RELATIONSHIPS THAT ARE JUST-- JUST BUILDING GOOD RELATIONSHIPS.

AND IT GOES BOTH WAYS, FOR THE COMMUNITIES THAT SURROUND US AND FOR OUR COMMUNITIES.

WE HAVE HAD SOME SUCCESSES HERE RECENTLY, WHICH I THINK ARE GOOD SIGNS.

SENECA FALLS IN THEIR COMPREHENSIVE PLAN FOR 2040, THERE IS ACTUALLY, I THINK, THREE OR FOUR PAGES DEDICATED TO THE CAYUGA NATION AND A LAND ACKNOWLEDGMENT AND THAT'S THE FIRST TIME THAT THAT HAS EVER HAPPENED.

I THINK THOSE ARE JUST IMPORTANT STEPS FORWARD FOR US BECAUSE TO DATE, YOU KNOW, EVERY PLACE WE TURN, WE ARE MET WITH AGGRESSIVE BEHAVIOR.

JUST NOT WELCOME ON OUR OWN LAND.

>> LET ME JUST SUPPLEMENT THAT.

WHEN YOU DRIVE INTO CAYUGA TERRITORY NOW, YOU STILL SEE THESE SIGNS PUT UP BY RESISTANCE GROUPS.

NO SOVEREIGN NATION.

NO RESERVATION.

>> CORRECT.

>> AND THEY'RE OBVIOUSLY MANUFACTURED AND SO THERE WAS A TREMENDOUS RESISTANCE TO FROM THE SETTLER FROM THE CAYUGA NATION RETURNING TO ITS HOMELAND.

THOSE ARE THE KINDS OF PROBLEMS THAT HAPPEN WHEN NATIONS REACQUIRE THEIR LOST AND STOLEN LAND AND THAT'S A VERY DIFFICULT SITUATION THAT HOPEFULLY GETS BETTER.

>> SCOTT, WHY IS IT IMPORTANT THAT WE RETAIN NATIONS THAT WE RETAIN THIS WAY OF LIFE, BUT ALSO THE INDIVIDUAL COMMUNITIES, YOU KNOW, IS THERE AN ARGUMENT TO BE MADE THAT MORE FORM OF ASSIMILATION IS GOOD AND ENOUGH IS NEVER GOING TO BE ENOUGH SO LET'S TAKE THE STATUS QUO AND MOVE ON AND TRY TO HEAL FROM WHERE WE ARE?

>> THAT WOULDN'T BE MY POSITION.

>> WHAT IS WRONG WITH THAT IDEA?

>> >> BECAUSE LOOK, WE HAVE A CULTURAL, NATIONAL IDENTITY THAT PREDATES THE UNITED STATES.

AND HOW WOULD THAT BE BETTER OFF GOING AWAY?

YOU KNOW, HAVE YOU TO REMEMBER-- YOU HAVE TO REMEMBER THAT BEFORE SETTLER CAME HERE, WE WERE 100% OF THE POPULATION.

AND WE HAVE BEEN GROUND DOWN, DISPLACED, VICTIMS OF GENOCIDE AND WAR, TO THE POINT WHERE WE ARE LIKE 2% OF THE GENERAL POPULATION.

THAT DOESN'T SPELL, FOR ME, THE TERMS OF SURRENDER TO, WELL, LET'S JUST GO AWAY GENTLY INTO THE NIGHT.

IF ANYTHING, THERE IS A REMARKABLE STORY HERE ABOUT THE PERSISTENCE OF HAUDENOSAUNEE CULTURE WITH HUNDREDS OF YEARS OF COLONIAL OCCUPATION THAT EVEN THOUGH THE LANGUAGES ARE THREATENED, THEY'RE STILL SPOKEN; THAT THE CENTRAL PHILOSOPHY OF LIFE ENCASED IN THE LONGHOUSE, THRIVES.

AND OUR IDENTITY THRIVES IN THAT REGARD.

PEOPLE STILL PRACTICE THEIR OWN TRADITIONS THAT ARE MILLENIA OLD AND HAVE RELATIONSHIPS WITH THE LAND AND SO ON.

WHY ANY OF THAT WOULD BENEFIT FROM FURTHER ASSIMILATION?

OF COURSE MOST ASSIMILATION WAS FORCED THROUGH BOARDING SCHOOLS, THROUGH POLICIES.

I WANT TO GO BACK, TOO, TO A POINT NEIL MADE ABOUT YOU ARE ASKING ABOUT THE RELATIONSHIP WITH THE STATE AND PEOPLE HAVE TO REALIZE THAT ACCORDING TO FEDERAL INDIAN LAW AND THE CONSTITUTION, OUR RELATIONSHIP AS NATIVE NATIONS IS WITH THE UNITED STATES FEDERAL GOVERNMENT.

WE HAVE A NATION TO NATION RELATIONSHIP.

AND IN THAT REGARD, THE STATE IS A LITTLE BROTHER TO THE NATION.

AND SO, PART OF THE PROBLEM MANY NATIVE COMMUNITIES HAVE ACROSS THE UNITED STATES WITH STATE GOVERNMENTS IS THE STATE GOVERNMENT'S FAILURE TO UNDERSTAND THAT FUNDAMENTAL ASPECT OF OUR RELATIONSHIP TO THE FEDERAL GOVERNMENT.

STATE-TO-STATE, NATION-TO-STATION, WE ARE-- BECAUSE WE ARE NESTED, OUR SOVEREIGNTY IS NESTED GEOPOLITICALLY WITHIN THE BOUNDARIES OF NEW YORK STATE OR WHAT WE NOW CALL NEW YORK STATE, DOESN'T MEAN THEY CENTER AUTHORITY OVER-- DOESN'T MEAN THEY HAVE AUTHORITY OVER US, NOT ACCORDING TO THE U.S. CONSTITUTION.

>> IS IT UNDERSTANDABLE WHERE STATE OFFICIALS MIGHT COME FROM?

NEW YORK STATE IS A 200 BILLION ON A MUCH SMALLER SCALE SO IS IT UNDERSTANDABLE THAT THEY MIGHT TAKE THAT PERCEPTION?

>> NO.

>> HOW COME?

>> BECAUSE I JUST THINK WHAT IS THE LEARNING CURVE HERE?

WHAT DON'T YOU UNDERSTAND ABOUT WHAT I'VE JUST SAID, RIGHT?

I THINK THESE ARE PEOPLE THAT MUST REALIZE, AS SMALL AS OUR NATIONS ARE-- I DON'T SAY WELL LOOK, SWITZERLAND IS A SMALL NATION, WHY DON'T WE JUST GET RID OF IT.

I THINK THERE IS-- EVERY-- THERE IS EVERY REASON TO UNDERSTAND THE VALUES WE HOLD ARE NOT GOING TO GO ANYWHERE.

BUT ALSO IF THE UNITED STATES STANDS FOR ANYTHING, IT IS THAT IT MUST STAND ON ITS WORD AND THOSE TREATIES MADE AT THE BEGINNING OF THE INCEPTION OF A NATION.

TO GO BACK ON THAT, I WOULD THINK, A HORRIBLE DETRAYAL OF ITS OWN VALUES.

>> I WOULD LIKE TO ADD IF YOU HAVE TO QUESTION WHY WE MUST SELF IDENTIFY AND HAVE THIS SORT OF AUTONOMY AS INDIGENOUS NATIONS IS THAT IN 2019, THE UNITED NATIONS CAME OUT VERY LINGUISTIC DIVERSITY AND BIO DIVERSITY ARE INHERENTLY LINKED.

MOST OF THE WORLD'S BIO DIVERSITY IS FOUND ON INDIGENOUS LANDS WHERE THEY MAINTAIN CONTROL OVER ACCESS AND CARE OF THAT PLACE RIGHT NOW IN GENESEE COUNTY, THERE IS A MASSIVE INDUSTRIAL PARK BUILT AT THE EDGE OF THE TONAWANDA SENECA NATION.

THIS IS A RESERVATION THAT HAS SOME OF THE HIGHEST BIODIVERSITY IN THE STATE AND IT'S NOT BECAUSE THEY HAVE A DEC OR THEY HAVE A CLEAN WATER ACT OR A CLEAN AIR ACT.

IT'S BECAUSE THEY CONTINUE TO GIVE THANKS.

I DON'T KNOW HOW TO ANSWER THIS QUESTION IF PEOPLE CAN'T SEE THIS PHYSICALLY IN THE NATURAL WORLD FOR THEIR OWN EYES.

OUR BELIEF SYSTEM IS THAT WE ALSO HAVE TO PROVIDE FOR THE ANIMALS AND THE INSECTS AND THE TREES THE ABILITY TO CARRY OUT THEIR RESPONSIBILITIES AND SO IF OUR GOAL IS TO SIMPLY MELT INTO ONE HUMAN RACE AND THINK ABOUT THAT AS OUR GUIDING PRINCIPLE, WE ARE NOT LOOKING OUT FOR WHO ELSE IS AT THE TABLE.

>> WELL, MISSY, THIS YEAR IN ALBANY, STATE LAWMAKERS SET UP LEGISLATION THAT WOULD SET UP A COMMISSION TO STUDY THE IDEA OF REPARATIONS FOR BLACK NEW YORKERS AND IDENTIFY WHAT REPARATIONS MIGHT CONSIST OF AND WHERE THEY'RE WARRANTED.

IS A EXITION LIKE THAT SOMETHING THAT POLICY MAKERS SHOULD CONSIDER FOR INDIGENOUS PEOPLE LIVING IN NEW YORK AS WELL?

>> I THINK SO.

HONESTLY, WE'VE JUST BEEN PUSHED ASIDE FOR SO LONG.

AND SO-- AND I DON'T WANT TO TAKE ANYTHING AWAY FROM ANY OTHER GROUP.

BUT AT THE SAME TIME, WE HAVE BEEN HERE THE LONGEST AND YET WE ARE STILL IGNORED.

WE ARE STILL PUSHED ASIDE.

WE ARE STILL-- THINGS ARE NOT MADE RIGHT.

>> FOR ONONDAGA, THE ONLY PROPER FORM OF REPARATIONS IS THE RETURN OF LAND.

THERE IS A LOT OF HEALING THAT HAS TO GO ON AND IT GOES BACK TO WHAT SCOTT STARTED TO REMIND US OF, WHICH IS THE INTEGRAL RELATIONSHIP BETWEEN INDIGENOUS PEOPLE AND THE LAND AND THE WATER.

WHEN I WAS IN STANDING ROCK, THE PEOPLE TALKED ABOUT THEIR RELATIONSHIP WITH THE MISSOURI RIVER.

I WAS ON A TOUR WHERE THE ONONDAGAS WERE EXPLAINING TO VISITORS THEIR RELATIONSHIP WITH THE ONONDAGA LAKE.

IT'S LIKE A RELATIVE I.

IS A RELATIVE.

AND THERE ARE CEREMONIES THAT CELEBRATE THAT.

AND SO, AT LEAST FOR OKAYED AND OTHER TRADITIONAL NATIONS, MONEY IS NOT ON THE TABLE.

AND THAT'S WHY THE RETURN OF THE THOUSAND ACRES IS SUCH A SIGNIFICANT ACCOMPLISHMENT.

NOT JUST FOR ONONDAGA BUT ALL INDIGENOUS PEOPLE AND PARTICULARLY THE HAUDENOSAUNEE, THAT IT WILL SET A PATTERN THAT WE CAN BEGIN TO RETURN LAND AND WATER TO THE PEOPLE WHO TOOK CARE OF IT FOR CENTURIES.

AND THAT WILL BENEFIT EVERYBODY.

AND THAT'S WHAT IS BEING DEMONSTRATED WITH THIS RETURN AT ONONDAGA.

LAND IS WHAT IS NEEDED.

>> I WOULD AGREE.

I THINK THAT WHEN YOU TALK ABOUT REPARATIONS AND LAND, I THINK PEOPLE, FROM OUTSIDE OF OUR COMMUNITIES WOULD THINK SO YOU ARE GOING TO GIVE THE WHOLE PLACE BACK TO NATIVE PEOPLE?

WE KNOW THAT'S NOT GOING TO HAPPEN.

BUT IF WE WERE TO RETURN, GET BACK THE LAND THAT WAS ORIGINALLY GUARANTEED US BY THE UNITED STATES AS OUR RESERVATIONS IN 1794, YOU LOOK AT A HISTORIC MAP OF OUR RESERVATION LANDS, IN THE STATE OF NEW YORK, AND ALL OF THEM ARE SCRBLY LARGER-- CONSIDERABLY LARGER, ONEIDA THE MOST DRAMATIC, REDUCED TO A PIN HEAD.

AND YET, PEOPLE ALSO WANT TO THINK, WELL, THIS ISN'T SOMETHING-- THIS HAPPENED...

SO THAT EVEN WHEN RECENT DECADES, WHEN THE STATE OF NEW YORK HAS WANTED TO TAKE LAND, ESPECIALLY BY EMNANT DOMAIN, WHERE DO THEY LOOK?

TO NATIVE NATIONS.

SO YOU HAVE THE KINZUA DAM PROJECT, YOU HAVE THE POWER AUTHORITY AT TUSCARORA, AND THE WIDENING IN THE MOHAWK TERRITORY.

YOU MEEB TO TELL ME ALL THE LAND IN THIS STATE, THAT YOU ALWAYS HAVE TO CHISEL AWAY AT A SMALL INDIGENOUS HOMELAND?

BUT THAT IS HOW THEY WORK.

AND THAT'S WHY WE DO HAVE TO KNOW WHO THE GOVERNOR IS EVERY TIME BECAUSE WHAT IS HIS OR HER POLICY TOWARDS NATIVE PEOPLE?

NONE OF THEM HAVE BEEN GREAT IN MY MIND BUT THE NOTION THAT IT IS A LONG TIME AGO, NO, IT'S NOT.

THESE ARE THE TYPE OF THINGS WE WANT REDRESSED BECAUSE THEY'RE CERTAINLY WITHIN LIVING MEMORY.

AND LAND IS AT THE CENTER OF IT ALWAYS.

>> AND I THINK WHAT PEOPLE REALLY HAVE A DIFFICULT TIME REMEMBERING-- FIRST OF ALL WE DON'T TEACH HAUDENOSAUNEE HISTORY VERY WELL BECAUSE WE WANT TO DENY IT.

BUT THERE ARE THREE TREATIES BETWEEN THE UNITED STATES GOVERNMENT AND THE HAUDENOSAUNEE AND PARTICULARLY THE 1794 TREATY OF CANANDAIGUA WAS A TREATY THAT WASHTON NEEDED TO HAVE DESPERATELY BECAUSE HE NEEDED TO KEEP THE SENECA AND HAUDENOSAUNEE WARRIORS IN THE WAR HE WAS LOSING IN OHIO.

THAT TREATY IS FUNDAMENTAL.

IN THE LATE 90s WE WERE NEGOTIATING WITH THE PATAKI ADMINISTRATION OVER TAXES AND WE WANTED THEM TO MENTION, JUST MENTION THE CANANDAIGUA TREATY.

IT TOOK SIX MONTHS TO GET THEM TO MENTION THE TREATY.

THERE WERE TREATIES HERE THAT GUARANTEED THE CAYUGA 64,000 ACRES AND OUR CONSTITUTION SAYS TREATIES ARE THE SUPREME LAW OF THE LAND.

AND THEN THERE IS A CLAUSE THAT REALLY SAYS AND STATE COURT JUDGES MUST HONOR THOSE.

NEW YORK IS NOT UNDERSTANDING THAT THIS IS A TREATY RELATIONSHIP.

THEY HAVE OBLIGATIONS AND THE UNITED STATES GOVERNMENT HAS NOT KEPT ITS PROMISES.

WHEN YOU TAKE THAT MUCH LAND FROM A PEOPLE, YOU BETTER KEEP THE PROMISES THAT CAME WITH IT.

AND THAT HAS NOT HAPPENED YET.

>> I JUST WANT TO TIE THIS ALL BACK TO THIS ECONOMY OF REPARATIONS BECAUSE, AS WE HEARD, THE ONGOING FIGHT, WHETHER IT'S AT TONAWANDA TODAY TOY-- TO PROTECT THE REMAINING LAND THEY HAVE FROM THIS MASSIVE INDUSTRIAL SITE, IS THE CONVERSATIONS THAT YOUNG PEOPLE ON OUR RESERVATIONS HAVE EVERY DAY WITH THEIR PARENTS.

AND AS I MENTIONED, MY PARENTS TOLD ME FROM A VERY YOUNG AGE, THEY WANT OUR LAND.

AND SO WHEN THE QUESTION OF SHOULD REPARATIONS COME TOWARDS INDIGENOUS PEOPLE IN NEW YORK, IN THE SAME WAY THAT REPARATIONS ARE COMING FOR FOR DIFFERENCES IS THAT SLAVERY HAS ENDED.

AND SO TODAY WE STILL VIEW THIS ACTIVE ON OPPRESSION AND ACTIVE SUPPRESSION AND QUEST FOR OUR LAND IS ONGOING.

SO IN OUR COUNTRIES THAT HAVE DEALT WITH THE QUESTION OF REPARATIONS, THE FIRST THING THAT HAS COME IS AN ADMISSION OF GUILT AND RECONCILIATION PROCESSES BEFORE REPARATIONS.

SO IT'S A VERY DIFFERENT SITUATION WHEN YOU ACTUALLY HAVE THIS ACTIVE QUEST TO DESTROY OUR RESERVATIONS IN UPSTATE NEW YORK AND THEN TO ASK THE QUESTION ABOUT REPARATIONS, IT'S A BIT OUT OF ORDER.

>> WELL, I GUESS I WOULD JUST POINT OUT THAT WHILE SLAVERY HAS BEEN GONE FOR 160 YEARS I IMAGINE BLACK PEOPLE WOULD POINT THAT OUT THAT INSTITUTIONS AND SOCIETIES TODAY CONTINUE TO DISENFRANCHISE AND PUT BLACK PEOPLE AT THE WRONG END OF THE STICK SO TO SPEAK.

BUT NEIL, HOW DO YOU GET PEOPLE, THE VAST MAJORITY OF PEOPLE WHO ARE NOT NATIVE NEW YORKERS, TO CARE ABOUT THIS?

BECAUSE WHEN WE TALK ABOUT LAND, FOR EXAMPLE, THIS IS A ZERO SUM GAME.

THERE IS IN THE GOING TO BE MORE LAND THAT'S COMING IN I TIME SOON.

>> THAT'S A GOOD QUESTION.

IT GOES BACK TO WHAT JOE SAID THERE.

HAS TO BE A TRUE ACCOUNTING OF THE HISTORY IN OUR SCHOOLS THAT MOST NEW YORKERS KNOW NOTHING ABOUT THEIR ROLE AS A TREATY PERSON, RIGHT?

AND WE HAVE TO REMIND PEOPLE THAT EVERY SINGLE CITIZEN OF THE STATE OF NEW YORK IS A TREATY PERSON.

THEY ARE BOUND BY THOSE TREATIES BETWEEN THE HAUDENOSAUNEE AND THE UNITED STATES.

THEY'RE NOT JUST INDIAN TREATIES.

THEY DON'T JUST PLI TO-- THEY DON'T JUST APPLY TO INDIAS BUT TO EVERYBODY WHO LIVES IN THE STATE OF NEW YORK.

HAVE YOU TO GO BACK TO THOSE ORIGINAL AGREEMENTS MOSTLY AROUND PEACE, FRIENDSHIP AND TRUST.

VERY COMMON SHARED VALUES THAT I THINK ALL PEOPLE CAN GET BEHIND.

>> SCOTT, AS AN EDUCATOR, WHAT DO YOU THINK ABOUT THE CURRICULUM, SAY THE K-12 SCHOOLS THAT IS LACKING THAT SHOULD, YOU KNOW, MAYBE BE PRODUCING ADULTS THAT THINK ABOUT THESE ISSUES IN A DIFFERENT WAY?

>> YEAH, I MEAN IT'S A REAL PROBLEM NATIONALLY.

IT'S NOT OF COURSE JUST NEW YORK.

AND ALTHOUGH HERE WE ARE ONE OF THE FEW STATES IN THE NORTHEAST THAT HAS MULTIPLE FEDERALLY RECOGNIZED RESERVATIONS, AND YOU WILL STILL OFTEN HAVE STUDENTS FROM NEW YORK WHO HAVE NO IDEA.

THEY'LL SAY OH, YOU KNOW, MY RESERVATION, MY MOTHER'S RESERVATION IS HERE.

THERE ARE RESERVATIONS IN NEW YORK?

THAT SHOULDN'T BE A QUESTION.

BUT IT OFTEN IS.

PARTLY THE PROBLEM IS DOES NATIONALLY THE AVERAGE AGE IN WHICH WE STOP TEACHING, THINK ABOUT WHAT YOU TELL A FOURTH GRADER.

YOU ARE NOT INTRODUCING THEM TO CONCEPTS LIKE ETHNIC CLEANSING, GENOCIDE, FORCED REMOVAL, FORCED STERILIZATION.

THINGS LIKE THAT.

YOU ARE TELLING THEM NICE STORIES FOR FOR 10 YEAR OLDS AND A LOT OF POCAHONTAS BUT VERY LITTLE REALITY OF THE TRAIL OF TEARS.

SO IF THAT IS WHERE YOUR EDUCATION OF NATIVE AMERICANS STOPS, IT CONNECTS IT BOTH WITH YOUR CHILDHOOD, YOUR PAST AND IT REALLY MAROONS NATIVE AMERICA IN THE PAST.

THAT'S THE THING TO DEAL WITH A LONG, LONG TIME AGO WITH POCAHONTAS AND SQUANTO.

AND FIRST THANKSGIVING.

AND WE USED TO RETURN THERE IN SEVENTH GRADE, OR WE USED TO WHEN I WAS A STUDENT.

>> A COUPLE YEARS AGO.

>> AND THERE WAS A, YOU KNOW, YOU LEARNED, BECAUSE YOU ARE LEARNING THE HISTORY OF NEW YORK STATE, THERE IS A LARGE FOCUS ON THE HAUDENOSAUNEE, BUT AGAIN, VERY MUCH ROOTED IN THE PAST.

SO WE ARE EARLY FALL PART OF THE CURRICULUM AND THEN WE MOVE ON AND THEN THE ERIE CANAL AND THEN PROGRESS AND INDUSTRY, ET CETERA.

AND WE DON'T REAPPEAR AGAIN AND THAT'S THE PROBLEM.

AS LONG AS WE ARE CONTINUALLY CONSIGNED TO THE PAST, PEOPLE WON'T HAVE THESE ISSUES ON THEIR MIND.

THEY'LL THINK, ARE THERE STILL NATIVE COMMUNITIES?

DOES IT MATTER, THAT TYPE OF THING?

THAT IS WHY I'M GLAD THAT WE HAVE A CURRICULUM AT SYRACUSE UNIVERSITY THAT FOCUSES ON NATIVE AMERICAN STUDIES, INDIGENOUS STUDIES AND GIVE STUDENTS WHO WANT TO, THE OPPORTUNITY TO LEARN ABOUT THIS.

INSTITUTIONAL SETTINGS ARE NOT THE ONLY WAY THAT PEOPLE CAN LEARN BECAUSE YOU MENTIONED POCAHONTAS AND I THINK ABOUT THE DISNEY CARTOONS BUT IN RECENT YEARS, I THINK ABOUT THE THE TELEVISION SHOW, OR KILLERS OF THE FLOWER MOON.

DO YOU FEEL LIKE POP CULTURE CAN BE A FORCE FOR GOOD IN THIS CONVERSATION?

AND IF SO, HAS IT BEEN MORE BENEFICIAL IN RECENT YEARS OR DO YOU SEE THE SAME TROPES AND PROBLEMS OF THE PAST?

>> I THINK IT'S A LOT BETTER NOW ESPECIALLY BECAUSE IN THE CASE OF LIKE RESERVATION DOGS, IT'S LARGELY DIRECTED, ACTED, PRODUCED WRITTEN BY INDIGENOUS PEOPLE.

THAT'S THE BIG DIFFERENCE.

THE STORY IS TOLD BY HOLLYWOOD ABOUT NATIVE PEOPLE IN THE PAST, LACKED ANY CONTACT WITH REALITY OR HISTORY.

AND THEREFORE, THE TURN WE HAVE NOW TO A MORE REALISTIC AND PRESENT NOTION OF NATIVE AMERICA, WHAT I LOVE ABOUT "RESERVATION DOGS" IS THAT IT'S CONTEMPORARY.

>> AND FUNNY, TOO.

>> IT'S FUNNY AND RIGHT, IT ALSO IS NOT PORTRAYED AS A VEIL OF TEARS.

WE LAUGH, WE HAVE FUN.

WE ENJOY OURSELVES, AND I THINK THAT-- AND WE LIVE IN THE PRESENT, YOU KNOW, WE HAVE CELL PHONES, WE DRIVE CARS.

WE DO ALL THAT GOOD STUFF.

AND THESE ARE, YOU KNOW, THEY'RE SMALL STEPS FORWARD.

>> IT TAKES ME THINK OF SOME OF THE DIFFERENT SERVICES THAT THE STATE IS RESPONSIBLE FOR PROVIDING PEOPLE.

ANOTHER ONE THAT COMES TO MIND IS HEALTHCARE.

MARGINALIZED PEOPLE ARE OFTEN, YOU KNOW, ON THE BOTTOM RUNG WHEN IT COMES TO HEALTHCARE ACCESS, QUALITY OF HEALTHCARE.

WHAT IS THE EXPERIENCE LIKE FOR THE CAYUGA NATION PEOPLE?

>> THAT'S ONE OF THE THINGS THAT IS STILL, I WOULD SAY, PROBLEMATIC FOR US.

JUST STARTING TO REACQUIRE LAND, WE RELY ON OUR BIG BROTHER, THE SENECAS.

THEY HAVE OBVIOUSLY HAVE HAD AN ESTABLISHED RESERVATION LONGER.

THEY'RE AHEAD OF US ECONOMICALLY SO WE ACTUALLY WORK WITH THEM AND GET OUR HEALTHCARE THROUGH THEM.

SO, YOU KNOW, THAT'S WHAT A TWO TO THREE-HOUR DRIVE IF YOU HAVE A TOOTHACHE OR, YOU KNOW, SOMETHING HAS HAPPENED.

IT'S NOT LIKE IT'S RIGHT AROUND THE CORNER AND YOU CAN GO TO URGENT CARE.

THAT DOESN'T EXIST FOR US.

IT'S A TWO TO THREE-HOUR DRIVE TO GET SOMEPLACE TO GET SOME CARE.

AND THEN TRYING TO FIGURE OUT, OKAY, WELL, WHERE AM I GOING TO STAY AND WHO CAN TAKE ME IN?

SO THERE IS ALL THAT.

AND SO REALLY, YOU KNOW, ON A DAY-TO-DAY BASIS, YOU KNOW, HAVE YOU TO WORK AROUND THAT.

HAVE YOU TO TRY AND FIGURE IT OUT AND THAT'S REALLY CHALLENGING.

>> WELL, JOE, THE ONONDAGA NATION HAS LAND, THEY HAVE INSTITUTIONS SET UP.

WHAT IS THE HEALTHCARE PICTURE LIKE THERE?

ARE THEY DEALING WITH THE SAME AFFORDABILITY AND HEALTHCARE CONCERNS.

>> THE HEALTHCARE CONCERNS WITH THE ONONDAGA AND TONAWANDA AND SENECA, THE HEALTHCARE CLINICS I'M FAMILIAR WITH, ARE ABYSMAL.

IT'S SO SEVERELY UNDERFUNDED THAT THEY CAN'T HIRE DOCTORS OR NURSES BECAUSE THE PAY IS AT LESS THAN 40% THAT IT IS OFF TERRITORY.

>> WHERE DOES THE FUNDING COME FROM?

FEDERAL MONEY, STATE FUNDED LOCALLY GENERATED?

>> THIS IS STATE MONEY.

AND WE HAVE BEEN WORKING FOR THE STATE TO UNDERSTAND HOW POORLY IT'S ADMINISTERED.

THAT'S VERY DIFFICULT TO DO.

BUT THE AVERAGING LIFESPAN OF ONONDAGA IS AT LEAST 10 YEARS LESS THAN ANY OTHER COMMUNITY IN THIS AREA.

SO IT'S AN AREA THAT NEEDS REALLY A GREAT DEAL MORE ATTENTION AND FUNDING.

AND JUST YESTERDAY, ABOUT THAT, WE HAVE BEEN WORK WORKING FOR OVER A YEAR, IT'S AN AREA THAT THE STATE REALLY NEEDS TO MEET ITS OBLIGATIONS IN AND THEY'RE NOT DOING THAT.

THERE IS NOWHERE IN NEW YORK STATE THAT HIRES THE KIND OF HEALTHCARE THAT OTHER FOLKS WOULD EXPECT.

YOU KNOW, NEIL CAN TELL YOU HOW BAD THE SITUATION IS AT TUSK TUSCARORA.

THESE SERVICES ARE JUST PRIMARY CARE AND IF YOU NEED ANYTHING ELSE, HAVE YOU TO GO TO AN OUTSIDE REFERRAL, AND THE PAY FOR THOSE OUTSIGH REFERRALS IS SO DILUTED THAT COMPANIES WON'T DO IT ANY LONGER.

PRESCRIPTION DRUGS ARE ANOTHER PROBLEM.

SO IT'S AN AREA THAT REALLY IS-- PEOPLE ARE DYING AS A RESULT OF NOT GETTING ENOUGH MONEY.

THAT WOULD SUM IT UP.

>> YOU WANT TO EXPAND ON THE HEALTHCARE EXPERIENCE?

>> JUST TO REFLECT WHAT JOE IS SAYING, YOU KNOW, I GREW UP ON A RESERVATION WHERE OUR CLINIC WAS IN A VERY SMALL ROOM IN A BASEMENT OF AN ELEMENTARY SCHOOL FOR 20 OR 30 YEARS.

IT HAD SORT OF REGULAR NURSES BUT JUST A VISITING DOCTOR.

IT'S EXPANDED QUITE A BIT.

THE NATIONS HAVE HAD TO PITCH IN ON THIS, BUT YOU KNOW, AND I THINK JUST THE BIGGER ISSUE GOING BACK TO, AGAIN, THE WORD HEALTH, RIGHT?

WHAT ARE WE TALKING ABOUT WHEN WE SAY GOOD HEALTH FROM AN INDIGENOUS PERSPECTIVE?

SO IT'S ALL OF THE WAYS OF KNOWING THAT HAUDENOSAUNEE PEOPLE HAVE, WHETHER IT'S MENTAL, PHYSICAL, SPIRITUAL, THERE ARE MANY PEOPLE IN THE COMMUNITIES THAT I HAVE LIVED IN THAT SAY, YOU KNOW, OUR ACCESS TO TRADITIONAL FOODS IS A HEALTHCARE REQUIREMENT.

OUR ACCESS TO CLEAN FISH IN ONONDAGA CREEK IS AN HEALTHCARE REQUIREMENT.

AND NOT NECESSARILY WESTERN MEDICINE BEING PRACTICED IN OUR COMMUNITIES.

IT'S ABOUT THE SELF-DETERMINATION OF OUR HEALTH.

>> WHAT IS THE ANSWER TO THE SITUATION BECAUSE THE IDEA OF LACK OF HEALTHCARE PROFESSIONALS IS NOT SOMETHING THAT IS UNIQUE TO RESERVATION PROPERTY.

IT IS A STORY ALL ACROSS UPSTATE NEW YORK, SO DOES IT JUST NEED TO COME FROM THE STATE MAKING INVESTMENTS?

DOES THE FEDERAL GOVERNMENT NEED TO COME IN BECAUSE AS YOU TALKED ABOUT, THE RELATIONSHIP BETWEEN THE NATIONS AND THE FEDERAL GOVERNMENT, I MEAN WHERE DOES THE RUBBER HIT THE ROAD SO TO SPEAK?

>> REALISTICALLY, IT JUST MAKES SENSE TO ME TO HAVE OUR OWN PEOPLE ASSISTING IN THE DEVELOPMENT OF OUR HEALTHCARE SYSTEM IN OUR COMMUNITIES USING OUR WAYS, RATHER THAN HAVING TO THINK ABOUT WESTERN MEDICINE AS SORT OF THE BAND-AID FOR THE SOLUTION.

THE EXAMPLE THAT IS VERY CLEAR THAT HAPPENED IN MY GRANDMOTHER'S TIME IS WHEN THE STATE OUTLAWED OUR WOMEN FROM HAVING BABIES AT HOME AND THAT BEGAN A LONG QUEST OF A FIGHT IN ALL OF OUR COMMUNITIES TO RECOGNIZE THIS TRADITIONAL PRACTICE THAT WE BELIEVE IS BRINGING A NEW SPIRIT INTO THE WORLD, VERY MUCH UNLIKE THE TYPICAL OB/GYN MATERNITY CARE PRACTICES TODAY.

IT'S ABOUT BUILDING RESILIENCE AND THE SELF-DETERMINATION OF OUR OWN HEALTHCARE SYSTEM.

>> WELL, YOU BRING UP THED ON OF SELF-DETERMINATION AND IT REMINDS ME AGAIN, BECAUSE IT ALL COMES BACK TO ME, LIFE AT THE CAPITOL AND ONE OF THE FIGHTS HAS BEEN OVER VACCINE REQUIREMENTS TO ATTEND SCHOOL AND WE HEAR FROM CERTAIN RELIGIOUS COMMUNITIES SAYING, YOU CAN'T REQUIRE US TO HAVE THIS.

THIS SHOULD BE A RELIGIOUS EXEMPTION.

STATE LAWMAKERS SAID SCOTT, WHEN YOU THINK ABOUT THE BALANCE, WHERE IS THE RIGHT BALANCE BETWEEN AUTONOMY FOR NATIVE PEOPLE AND THE STATE GOVERNMENT?

DOES IT COME BACK DOWN TO THAT LITTLE BROTHER RELATIONSHIP THAT WE TALKED ABOUT EARLIER?

ARE THERE PUBLIC HEALTH CONCERNS THAT NEED TO BE THOUGHT ABOUT, LARGER PICTURE?

I MEAN HOW DO YOU BALANCE ALL OF THAT?

>> I MEAN WE SHOULD MAKE SOME DIFFERENCES BETWEEN MAINTENANCE OF HEALTH AND THEN WHEN YOU HAVE A HEALTH PROBLEM.

SO I THINK THAT IF WE WERE ALLOWED THE RIGHT TO PRACTICE SOME OF OUR TRADITIONAL LIFE WAYS, WHETHER IT BE FOOD SOVEREIGNTY OR OTHER TYPES OF SELF CARE, THEN THAT'S PART OF THE MAINTENANCE PART AND THAT'S VERY MUCH WITHIN OUR WORLD TO MAINTAIN AND TAKE CARE OF, TAKE RESPONSIBILITY FOR.

IN URGENT CARE SITUATIONS, WHERE YOU MIGHT WANT A DOCTOR OR SURGEON, TO GO TO A HOSPITAL, THE PROBLEM IS NOT-- YOU CAN'T JUST SAY, WELL, LOOK, IT'S TOUGH FOR ALL POOR PEOPLE ACROSS THE STATE.

OKAY.

I DON'T DOUBT IT IS.

WE ARE NOT A NATION KNOWN FOR ITS GENEROUS HEALTHCARE.

BUT REALIZE FOR INDIGENOUS PEOPLE, THERE ARE ADDED LAYERS OF BUREAUCRACY THAT ARE KILLING US.

WITH THE FORMS AND WILL POLICY AND JURISDICTIONS AND SO ON, IF I WERE JUST A PERSON NOT WELL OFF, BUT LIVING IN THE COUNTRY SIDE, I WOULDN'T HAVE TO FILL OUT ALL OF THESE THINGS TO KNOW THAT I COULD GO TO A DOCTOR AND HAVE THEM PAID BECAUSE IT'S COMING FROM SOME OTHER INSTITUTION OR ANOTHER GOVERNMENT AGENCY AND SO ON.

I MEAN THESE ARE REALLY-- THESE ARE REAL THINGS HAPPENING TO INDIGENOUS PEOPLE ACROSS THE COUNTRY.

EVERY STATE WILL HAVE ITS OWN PROBLEMS.

BUT A KIND OF BUREAUCRACY ENCOMPASSING EVERYTHING WE DO IS NOT THERE FOR OUR BENEFIT OR PROTECTION, LET US SAY.

>> AND HEALTH IS DIRECTLY TIED TO LAND.

EVERYTHING GOES BACK TO LAND.

NEIL MENTIONED THAT PRIOR TO COLONIZATION, ONE THIRD OF THE DIET OF THE HAUDENOSAUNEE, PARTICULARLY THE ONONDAGAS THAT I'M FAMILIAR WITH, WAS FISH.

THE COLONISTS WHO CAME TO ONONDAGA LAKE IN THE MID 1700S, TO A PERSON WROTE ABOUT THE ABUNDANCE OF FISH THERE.

IN FACT, THE FISH WERE SO ABUNDANT, THAT YOU SCO WALK ACROSS THE LAKE 09 BACKS OF THE FISH.

ALL OF THAT 2.5 MILLION ACRES THAT THE ONONDAGA USED TO BE STEWARDS OF AND FISH AND HUNT HAVE BEEN TAKEN FROM THEM.

THEY HAVE LESS THAN 1% OF THAT LEFT SO THEY HAVE LOST THE CLEAN FISH THAT THEY-- THAT IS AN INTEGRAL PART OF THEIR HEALTH.

COMPOUNDING THAT IS NOT ONLY LOSING ONONDAGA LAKE AND THE WHOLE EASTERN SHORE OF LAKE ONTARIO WITH AMAZING FISHING IS THE LAKE OF-- THE LOSS OF FISH IN ONONDAGA CREEK DUE TO THE RECKLESS SALT MINING OF HONEYWELL SO THERE ARE GENERATIONS OF ONONDAGA THAT REMEMBER GOING OUT AT NIGHT AND SPEAR FISHING FOR TROUT WITH A KEROSENE LANTERN.

THAT'S A CLEAN CREEK.

IT WAS POPULATED WITH TROUT.

NOW BECAUSE OF THE PHENOMENA OF THE MUD BOILS, THERE IS NO FISH LEFT IN THE CREEK.

COMPOUNDING THAT WHEN ONONDAGA FISCHERS AND GATHERERS GO OFF TERRITORY, THEY'RE TICKETED BY DEC FOR MINISCULE THINGS.

AND UP UNTIL THREE YEARS AGO, THAT WAS THE PATTERN FOOD SOVEREIGNTY PROGRAM, SEND OUT FISHERS TO BRING BACK FOOD.

THEY WERE GIVEN ABSURD TICKETS.

I THINK WE HAVE REACHED A LEVEL OF UNDERSTANDING WITH THE STATE NOW THAT HAS STOPPED THE TICKETING AND HAS BEGUN TO UNDERSTAND THE FEDERAL LAW PRINCIPLE THAT STATES CANNOT TICKET TREATY PROTECTED FISHER OR HUNTER OR GATHERER UNLESS THE FISH CAN DEMONSTRATE THAT THAT LAW IS NECESSARY TO PRESERVE THAT SPECIES IN THAT ENVIRONMENT.

AND SO WE HAVE TO ALLOW INDIGENOUS PEOPLE TO GO OUT AND HUNT AND GATHER MEDICINEAL FOODS THAT ARE INCREDIBLY IMPORTANT IN THIS.

AND WHEN YOU TAKE AWAY ALL THE LAND, YOU TAKE AWAY ALL THOSE WITH THE SPIRITUAL STRENGTH THAT COMES FROM BEING OUT ON THE LAND AND THE WATER.

SO THAT IS A MAJOR PROBLEM FOR THE HEALTH.

INDIGENOUS PEOPLE TODAY.

>> WE'VE GOT ABOUT 30 SECONDS LEFT AND I JUST WANT TO END WITH YOU MISSY BECAUSE OF THE UPHILL ROAD THE CAYUGA HAVE BEEN OVER THE LAST HUNDREDS OF YEARS.

HOW DO YOU FEEL RIGHT NOW, OPTIMISTIC OR PESSIMISTIC?

>> I'M OPTIMISTIC.

I SEE THINGS HAPPENING AROUND ME THAT I THINK WE ARE TRYING TO MAKE HAPPEN AND I THINK WE SEE SOME SUCCESS.

IT'S STILL A LONG BATTLE, AS I THINK YOU HAVE HEARD HERE TODAY.

BUT I WOULD LIKE TO REMAIN OAMENT AND I LIKE TO KEEP%-- I LIKE TO KEEP PERSEVERANCE AND STAY OPTIMISTIC.

>> AND UNFORTUNATELY, THAT'S ALL THE TIME WE HAVE TODAY.

MY THANKS TO JOE HEATH - GENERAL COUNSEL FOR THE ONONDAGA NATION - MISSY BARRINGER - CHIEF OPERATING OFFICER FOR THE CAYUGA NATION'S LAKESIDE ENTERPRISES - NEIL PATTERSON, JUNIOR - ASSISTANT DIRECTOR OF THE CENTER FOR NATIVE PEOPLES AND THE ENVIRONMENT AT SUNY ESF - AND SCOTT MANNING STEVENS - DIRECTOR OF THE NATIVE AMERICAN AND INDIGENOUS STUDIES PROGRAM AT SYRACUSE UNIVERSITY.

IF YOU'D LIKE TO REVISIT THIS EPISODE - OR DIG INTO THE CONNECT NEW YORK ARCHIVES - VISIT WCNY,ORG/CONNECTNEWYORK.

AND FOR MORE STATE GOVERNMENT COVERAGE, CHECK OUT THE CAPITOL PRESSROOM AT CAPITOL PRESSROOM .ORG OR WHEREVER YOU DOWNLOAD PODCASTS ON BEHALF OF THE ENTIRE TEAM AT WCNY - I'M DAVID LOMBARDO - THANKS FOR WATCHING.