>> THE STATE BUDGET IS DUE NEXT WEEK, APRIL 1, NO FOOL-IN.

DOES IT MEAN NEW PROGRAMS OR A TAX INCREASE?

NEXT ON "IVORY TOWER."

♪ ♪ ♪ ♪ >> WELCOME TO "IVORY TOWER."

I'M BARBARA FOUGHT FROM SYRACUSE UNIVERSITY.

ON THE PANEL TONIGHT TO DISCUSS THE NEWS ARE RICK FENNER FROM UTICA COLLEGE, PETER ENNS FROM CORNELL AND RICK FEPPER LUKE PERRY FROM UTICA COLLEGE.

NEXT WEEK IS THE DEADLINE FOR THE STATE BUDGET AND WITH THE GOVERNOR UNDER INVESTIGATION AND SPEAKER CARL HEASTIE FIGHTING COVID, THE DOLE MAKING MIGHT BE A LITTLE DIFFERENT THIS YEAR.

WE KNOW WHAT WE FEARED BACK IN JANUARY, A $SA BILLION DEFICIT WILL NOT EXIST, THANKS TO THE FEDERAL STIMULUS OF MORE THAN $12 MOL FOR THE STATE.

I'M WONDERING RICK WHAT YOU SEE FOR THE OUTLOOK FOR THE BUDGET.

>> FEDERAL RELIEF MONEY WILL CLOSE MUCH OF THE BUDGET SHORTFALL CAUSED BY THE PANDEMIC BUT NOT ALL OF IT.

IT WILL AVOID NEW YORK STATE FROM HAVING TO MAKE DRAMATIC CUTS TO EXISTING PROGRAMS.

BUT I THINK THERE ARE STILL MAJOR QUESTIONS THAT ARE GOING TO AFFECT THIS YEAR'S BUDGET, PRIMARILY HOW QUICKLY WILL THE ECONOMY REBOUND IN NEW YORK STATE?

I THINK REVENUE PROJECTIONS MOVING FORWARD ARE LIKELY TO BE EVEN MORE SUSPECT THAN NORMAL, SO I THINK TALK ABOUT MAJOR INCREASES IN PROGRAMS SUCH AS SPENDING FOR EDUCATION WILL BE A LITTLE RISKY.

NOW SOME OF THE PEOPLE WHO ARE PUSHING FOR SOME OF THESE BIG INCREASES ARE POINTING TO POTENTIAL NEW REVENUE STREAMS SUCH AS WITH RESPECT TO SPORTS GAMBLING AND RECREATIONAL MARIJUANA.

BUT I WOULD HESITATE TO-- BEFORE MAKING PRETTY SOLID ESTIMATES OF HOW MUCH THESE ARE GOING TO RAISE.

SO I WOULD BE SOMEWHAT CONSERVATIVE IN THIS.

THE OTHER AREA OF POTENTIAL REVENUE SOURCE WOULD BE TAXES ON THE WEALTHY.

SIGNIFICANT TAXES ON THE WEALTHY ARE ATTRACTIVE.

THEY HAVE DONE VERY WELL UNDER THE PANDEMIC.

MANY ON THE FAR LEFT ARE PUSHING THEM.

BUT THE PROBLEM IS, AS GOVERNOR CUOMO HAS SAID, THE WEALTHY ARE POTENTIALLY VERY MOBILE.

AND NEW YORK STATE IS HIGHLY DEPENDENT ON A VERY SMALL NUMBER OF NEW YORKERS FOR A SIGNIFICANT PORTION OF OUR TAX REVENUE.

NOW THE GOOD NEWS IS THAT IT APPEARS THAT MOST OF THE WEALTHY THAT FLED NEW YORK DURING THE PANDEMIC FOR FLORIDA HAVE CHOSEN TO COME BACK.

THERE WAS SOME FEAR THAT THEY WOULD STAY IN FLORIDA BECAUSE OF THE WEATHER AND TAXES.

BUT IT APPEARS THE AMENITIES OF NEW YORK CITY ARE BRINGING MOST OF THEM BACK.

BUT I DON'T THINK IT WOULD TAKE TOO MANY OF THESE REACTING TO A PUNITIVE OR SIGNIFICANT INCREASE IN EITHER THE INCOME TAX OR MORE SERIOUSLY A WEALTH TAX, TO PUT A CRIMP IN NEW YORK STATE'S TAX REVENUE PROJECTIONS.

SO I WOULD RECOMMEND THAT NEW YORK STATE BE SOMEWHAT CONSERVATIVE MOVING FORWARD, TRYING TO GET BACK ON OUR FOOTING THIS YEAR BEFORE COMING UP WITH MAJOR NEW SPENDING PROGRAMS.

>> RICK KNOWS THE NUMBERS BETTER THAN I DO BUT I DON'T SEE THE LEGISLATURE BEING CONSERVATIVE IN THIS PARTICULAR MOMENT EVEN THOUGH THAT MAY BE SOUND ADVICE.

BUT THE POLITICS ARE SUCH THAT GOVERNOR CUOMO'S POLITICAL CLOUT HAS ALL ABOUT EVAPORATED AND THE DEMOCRATS IN BOTH CHAMBERS ARE GOING TO BE DRIVING THE SHIP IN A WAY WHERE THEY'RE GOING TO GET THE SPENDING PRIORITIES THEY HAVE WANTED FOR A WHILE.

EDUCATION, WHICH RICK MENTIONED, IS SOMETHING THAT DEMOCRATS HAVE THOUGHT THAT WE HAVE UNDERSPENT ON AND NOT MADE GOOD ON PAST PROMISES AND STATE AID FORMULA HAS NEVER WORKED WELL.

SO I DO SEE AN INCREASE HAPPENING THERE DESPITE THE GOVERNOR'S RESERVATIONS AND I'M INTRIGUED THAT NEW YORK IS GOING TO JOIN ITS NEIGHBORS AND OTHER BIG STATES IN LEGALIZING RECREATIONAL MARIJUANA AND SPORTS BETTING.

I DO THINK FROM A LOCAL PERSPECTIVE, THE GAMBLING WE HAVE NOW IS INTENDED TO BENEFIT UPSTATE NEW YORK.

BUT THERE IS A LOT OF MONEY LEFT ON THE TABLE, NO PUN INTENDED WITH MOBILE WAGERING.

SO I THINK YOU LOOK AT NEIGHBORING STATES LIKE NEW JERSEY AND THE REVENUE THAT COULD BRING IN, IT IS HARD TO PASS UP.

AND I THINK THE DIFFICULT ECONOMIC SITUATION CREATES A POLICY OPPORTUNITY WE HAVEN'T SEEN IN A WHILE.

>> PETER, WHAT ABOUT EDUCATION FUNDING OR SPORTS BETTING?

DO YOU SEE THOSE PASSING?

>> YEAH, WELL, I THINK MAKING SURE THERE IS MONEY TO SUPPORT THESE POLICIES LIKE EDUCATION IS ABSOLUTELY CRITICAL, ESPECIALLY AFTER SUCH A CHALLENGING EDUCATIONAL YEAR.

IN TERMS OF WHERE DOES THE REVENUE COME FROM TO SUPPORT THIS, I'M LESS PESSIMISTIC ABOUT TAXING THE SUPER WEALTHY IN NEW YORK.

I THINK THE DATA SUGGEST THAT THE SUPER WEALTHY FOLKS LEAVING WHEN TAX RATES CHANGE IS NOT AS COMMON AS IS SOMETIMES PORTRAYED IN THE MEDIA BUT I THINK THE CONTEXT MATTERS, TOO, HERE.

FIRST, THE RICH ARE PAYING LESS IN INCOME TAXES RIGHT NOW AT THE FEDERAL LEVEL BECAUSE OF THE 2017 TAX CUTS.

RICK, YOU ARE SPOT ON WHEN YOU ARE TALKING ABOUT THE SUPER RICH DOING WELL IN THE PANDEMIC.

SO I JUST RECENTLY SAW A REPORT THAT THE 10 RICHEST PEOPLE DURING THE PANDEMIC, THE MONEY-- THE INCREASED WEALTH TO THEM COULD PAY FOR EVERYONE IN THE WORLD TO GET THE VACCINE RIGHT NOW.

THAT'S JUST INCREASED WEALTH.

AND THE PROPOSALS I'VE SEEN AT THE STATE LEVEL IN NEW YORK ARE REALLY JUST FOR THOSE SUPER WEALTHY.

AND THEY'RE NOT THAT BIG AN INCREASE.

WE ARE TALKING ABOUT INDIVIDUALS MAKING A MILLION A YEAR OR COUPLES MORE THAN $2 MILLION A YEAR.

THIS IS HIGH AMOUNTS OF MONEY, JUST OVER A 1% INCREASE IN THE STATE INCOME TAX FROM 8.82% TO 9.85%.

THEN THERE WOULD BE AN ADDITIONAL PERCENTAGE IF YOU ARE MAKING OVER $5 MILLION AND ANOTHER ADDITION OVER $25 MILLION, BUT GIVEN THE BROAD CONTEXT OF THE ECONOMIC CLIMATE AND FEDERAL TAX CUTS, I THINK IT'S A REASONABLE PROPOSAL.

>> LET ME ADDRESS PETER'S POINT.

IF YOU ARE TALKING ABOUT AN ADDITIONAL PERCENT OR A LITTLE BIT MORE ON THE TAX BRACKET, I DON'T THINK THAT'S ENOUGH TO PUSH PEOPLE OUT OF NEW YORK CITY.

BUT THERE HAVE BEEN DISCUSSIONS ABOUT WEALTH TAXES AND EVEN MORE SIGNIFICANT INCREASES IN TAXES.

AND I DON'T KNOW WHERE THE TIPPING POINT IS.

YOU ARE RIGHT THAT MOST STUDIES HAVE SHOWN THAT TAX RATES ARE NOT THE PRIMARY FACTOR THAT DETERMINES WHERE PEOPLE LIVE.

BUT AGAIN WE ARE HIGHLY DEPENDENT ON A FEW, YOU KNOW, JUST A FEW HUNDRED NEW YORKERS.

SO IF WE GO OVER OR PASS THAT TIPPING POINT, WE COULD PAY A VERY HIGH PRICE FOR THAT.

SO I JUST WANT TO BE CAUTIOUS.

WITH RESPECT TO THE GAMBLING, YOU KNOW, FOR MANY, MANY YEARS, YOU'VE HEARD A VERY OPTIMISTIC PROJECTIONS ABOUT HOW MUCH MONEY GAMBLING IS GOING TO BRING IN.

NEW JERSEY ALMOST SUNK, BASED UPON WHAT IT THOUGHT IT WAS GOING TO BE BRINGING IN IN GAMBLING.

SO I WOULD JUST BE VERY CAUTIOUS MOVING AHEAD PROPOSING MAJOR INCREASES IN SPENDING ON A REVENUE STREAM THAT WE HAVE VERY LITTLE EXPERIENCE WITH.

>> I'M WONDERING UPSTATE OFTEN SEEMS TO GET THE SHORT STICK IN THE BUDGET.

LUKE, DO YOU HAVE ANY SENSE OF WHETHER THAT'S TRUE THIS TIME?

>> UNFORTUNATELY WE ARE IN A DIMINISHED POSITION OF LEVERAGE IN REGARDS TO OUR POLICY ADVOCACY.

IT'S HARD TO SAY BECAUSE THERE ARE SO MANY DIFFERENT VARIABLES AT PLAY HERE.

BUT HOPEFULLY THIS TIME AROUND, IT WILL BE A LITTLE BETTER FOR UPSTATE THAN IN THE PAST.

>> WELL, LET'S HOPE SO.

LET ME MOVE US TO OUR SECOND TOPIC AND THAT IS THAT MORE MIGRANTS ARE COMING THROUGH MEXICO, HOPING TO MAKE IT INTO THE UNITED STATES AND THE BIDEN ADMINISTRATION SAYS IT'S ONLY LETTING UNACCOMPANIED TEENS AND CHILDREN.

BUT THE PRESIDENT DID ADMIT YESTERDAY THAT HIS ADMINISTRATION HAS TO DO A LOT MORE TO RELIEVE THOSE OVERCROWDED CONDITIONS FOR THE TEENS.

HE SAID IT'S NOT REALLY THE CRISIS THAT THE REPUBLICANS ARE PAINTING THIS.

THE PRESIDENT SAID THIS IS JUST THE USUAL SEASONAL BUMP.

AND PETER IS THAT HOW YOU SEE IT?

>> THAT'S PART OF THE STORY.

AND SO WE HAVE BEEN HEARING TERMS IN THE MEDIA CRISIS SURGE.

I DO THINK THAT'S PROBABLY A BIT HYPERBOLIC.

AND IF WE LOOK AT THE DATA ON IMMIGRATION AT THE SOUTHERN BORDER, HISTORICALLY THERE IS ABSOLUTELY A SEASONAL UPTICK THIS TIME OF YEAR.

BUT THERE IS MORE TO THE STORY.

SO IF WE DRILL DOWN TO THE NUMBERS JUST A BIT FROM 2013 TO 2019, THE AVERAGE INCREASE FROM JANUARY TO FEBRUARY WAS 3600 IMMIGRANTS.

THIS YEAR, THE INCREASE FROM JANUARY TO FEBRUARY HAS BEEN ALMOST 22,000.

SO MORE THAN SIX TIMES THE TYPICAL INCREASE.

AND FURTHER, THE TOTAL IMMIGRANT ENCOUNTERS AT THE BORDER IF IN FEBRUARY WAS MORE THAN 100,000, WHICH IS THE HIGHEST EVER FOR FEBRUARY GOING BACK TO 2013 WHEN DATA ARE AVAILABLE THAT MIGHT SM TO COUNTER WHAT BIDEN IS SAYING BUT THERE IS A MORE IMPORTANT PATTERN THAT I THINK ALMOST EVERYONE IS MISSING RIGHT NOW.

THE CURRENT INCREASE IN I AM IMMIGRATION AT THE SOUTHERN BORDER BEGAN UNDER DONALD TRUMP'S PRESIDENCY DURING TRUMPS LAST FOUR MONTHS IN OFFICE, EACH OF THOSE MONTHS HAD THE HIGHEST NUMBER OF IMMIGRANTS ON RECORD.

SO WHEN WE ARE DISCUSSING IMMIGRATION AND WHETHER THERE IS AN INCREASE OR WHETHER THERE IS A CRISIS, IT'S JUST IMPERATIVE TO REMEMBER THAT THESE INCREASES BEGAN DURING TRUMP'S PRESIDENCY AND TREATING THIS AS SOMETHING THAT IS JUST A RESULT OF BIDEN OR THINGS BIDEN HAD SAID OR POLICY SINCE BIDEN CAME TO OFFICE, COMPLETELY MISSES THE MARK.

>> AND I THINK IT'S NOT ONLY THE TOTAL NUMBER OF PEOPLE THAT ARE BEING STOPPED AT THE BORDER.

WHAT THE REAL PROBLEM IS THE NUMBER OF UNACCOMPANIED MINORS.

AND THAT HAS BEEN A PROBLEM.

AND SO IN THE SHORT RUN, I THINK THE BIDEN ADMINISTRATION HAS TO PROCESS THESE INDIVIDUALS MUCH QUICKER, GET THEM FROM CUSTOMS THROUGH INTO H.H.S.

AND HOPEFULLY UNITED WITH RELATIVES IN THE UNITED STATES SO THAT WE CAN DEAL WITH THIS VERY UNACCEPTABLE PROBLEM OF HAVING ALL OF THESE CHILDREN THAT ARE IN THESE PLACES DOWN ON THE BORDER.

BUT I THINK IN THE LONG RUN WE ARE MISSING WHAT HAS TO HAPPEN HERE.

AND THAT HAS TO BE OPPORTUNITIES IN MEXICO HAVE TO IMPROVE SO THAT LESS PEOPLE ARE WILLING TO TAKE THE RISK TO CROSS THE BORDER ILLEGALLY.

AND WHILE THAT IS WHAT DONALD TRUMP SAID THAT HE WANTED, BY TRYING TO RENEGOTIATE SOME OF THE LIKE NAFTA AND TRY TO FORCE THE MEXICANS TO TAKE WORSE TERMS, THAT REALLY WORKS AGAINST US.

THESE TRADE AGREEMENTS ARE REALLY MEANT, NOT TO BE ZERO SUM, BUT TO HELP BOTH SIDES.

AND WE HAVE A STRONG INCENTIVE ON TRYING TO IMPROVE THE MEXICAN ECONOMY, NOT ONLY SO MEXICANS CAN GO AND BUY MORE AMERICAN MADE PRODUCTS BUT ALSO SO THAT LESS MEXICANS FEEL THAT THE ONLY WAY UPWARD IS BY LEAVING THEIR COUNTRY AND TRYING TO CROSS OUR SOUTHERN BORDER.

>> LUKE, THE VICE PRESIDENT HAS BEEN CHARGED WITH TRYING TO HELP THOSE COUNTRIES STABILIZE IN SOME WAY SO FEWER PEOPLE WANT TO COME.

SHE HAS GOT A REAL CHALLENGE ON HER HANDS, RIGHT?

>> IT IS A DIFFICULT POSITION.

I DO THINK THIS IS A MUCH LONGER TERM PROBLEM THAN THE IMMEDIATE MOMENT.

BUT IT'S CLEAR WHAT THE BIDEN ADMINISTRATION DOESN'T WANT TO DO.

THEY DON'T WANT TO REPLICATE SOME OF THE IMMIGRATION POLICIES THAT PRESIDENT TRUMP HAD IN TERMS OF FAMILY SEPARATION, YOU KNOW, THEY WANT TO TRY NOT TO HOUSE PEOPLE IN DETENTION CENTERS.

BUT POLICY WISE, PURPOSELY OR INADVERTENTLY, THEY'RE INCREASING INCENTIVES FOR PEOPLE TO COME, PARTICULARLY IN TERMS OF UNACCOMPANIED MINORS.

THEY'RE NOT DEPORTING THESE PEOPLE IMMEDIATELY AND I'M NOT SAYING THEY SHOULD.

THEY'RE PLACING THEM, WHEN POSSIBLE, WITH FAMILY MEMBERS HERE IN THE UNITED STATES AND THAT'S WHY YOU HAVE LARGELY TEENAGE BOYS, 15, 16, 17 FROM HONDURAS, GUATEMALA AND MEXICO COMING NOW IN PART BECAUSE THEY ARE REASONABLY CONFIDENT THEY CAN BE CONNECTED WITH FAMILY MEMBERS HERE.

SO THE DEMOCRATS DON'T WANT TO REPLICATE TRUMP.

RHETORICALLY THEY'RE SAYING THE BORDER IS CLOSE THISSED BUT IT'S NOT CLEAR EXACTLY POLICY WHAT THEY'RE GOING TO DO TO TRY TO ADDRESS THIS PROBLEM AND CERTAINLY IT'S NOT GOING TO GO AWAY ANY TIME.

>> I AGREE THAT THAT THERE IS A DEFINITE SHIFT IN TONE AND THAT THE BIDEN ADMINISTRATION PROBABLY IS INADVERTENTLY ENCOURAGING PEOPLE.

I FIND IT IRONIC WHEN I HEARD A REPUBLICAN BLAME BIDEN FOR BEING MORE HUMANE WITH RESPECT TO THESE PEOPLE TRYING TO CROSS THE BORDER.

>> PETER, I'M WONDERING HOW YOU SEE THIS ISSUE IN THE UPCOMING 2022 ELECTION.

THIS IS GOING TO BE POLITICIZED, I'M GUESSING.

>> OH IT CERTAINLY WILL BE POLITICIZED AND IN TERMS OF PASSING FEDERAL LEGISLATION TO IMPROVE THE SITUATION, THAT'S SUPER UNLIKELY.

AND YOU KNOW, AGAIN, THE DATA I WAS POINTING OUT SHOWING THAT THIS STARTED UNDER TRUMP SO THIS IS REALLY AN ISSUE THAT BEGAN WITH TRUMP, POINTING TO THE DATA ISN'T GOING TO RESONATE TWO YEARS FROM NOW.

EVEN IF IT'S TRUE, BIDEN CAN'T-- AND THE DEMOCRATS CAN'T SAY LOOK, THIS ALL STARTED UNDER TRUMP.

WE ARE OR DEALING WITH A MESS THAT WE WERE LEFT WITH.

BUT I THINK THE SOLUTION IS, YOU KNOW, DOING AS MUCH AS POSSIBLE, FOCUSING ON THE DATA, DATA-ORIENTED DECISIONS AND THEN JUST ALL YOU CAN DO IS POINT TO YOUR EFFORTS AND PROGRESS AND HOPE, YOU KNOW, HOPE VOTERS EVALUATE BASED ON THAT.

>> PETER, ONE OF THE PUNDITS THAT I HEARD THIS WEEK SAID BIDEN NEEDS TO SIT DOWN AND HAVE A FIRE SIDE CHAT AND REALLY EDUCATE THE PUBLIC.

IS THAT A GOOD IDEA?

>> YOU KNOW, ANY TIME YOU CAN PRESENT A COMPLICATED ISSUE WITHIN ITS CONTEXT, I THINK IT'S VALUABLE, RIGHT?

WHETHER THAT'S IMMIGRATION AND WHETHER THE MECHANISM IS A FIRE SIDE CHAT IS HARDER TO SAY.

BUT WHAT OFTEN GETS LOST IN THIS, THESE ARE HUMANS IN REALLY DIFFICULT SITUATIONS.

AND WE WERE TALKING ABOUT, YOU KNOW, THE INCREASE IN MINORS COMING TO THE BORDER, RIGHT?

SO CHILDREN OFTEN WITHOUT, IN SOME CASES, WITHOUT THEIR FAMILY.

WHEN THE PUBLIC STARTS HEARING THE HUMAN STORIES, WHEN THE PUBLIC STARTS UNDERSTANDING THE COMPLEXITIES OF THE SITUATION, AND WHEN, EVEN IF IT IS COMPLICATED, WHEN THE POLICY PROPOSALS ARE PRESENTED, IT'S NOT GOING TO WORK FOR EVERYBODY.

WE LIVE IN A HIGHLY POLARIZED POLITICAL ENVIRONMENT.

BUT YOU GOT TO START, AND YOU GOT TO TRY TO COMMUNICATE THAT.

AND IF YOU ARE NOT EVEN TRYING TO COMMUNICATE THE CONTEXT AND THE DETAILS, YOU KNOW, WE ARE ALL AT A DISADVANTAGE.

>> WELL, DISADVANTAGE, THIS WEEK IN WASHINGTON, A SENATE COMMITTEE HAS BEEN CONSIDERING AN UPDATE TO THE CIVIL RIGHTS ACT.

THE BILL WOULD BAN DISCRIMINATION BASED ON SEXUAL ORIENTATION AND GENDER IDENTITY, BUT SO FAR IT IS DOUBTFUL THE SENATE WILL PASS IT AND YET THERE IS A POLL THAT SHOWS THREE QUARTERS OF THE PUBLIC SUPPORTS THIS.

AND YOU MIGHT THINK RELIGIOUS COMMUNITIES ARE THE ROAD BLOCK.

BUT THE NON-PARTISAN PUBLIC RELIGION RESEARCH INSTITUTION FOUND-- AND THIS SURPRISED ME-- THAT EVERY RELIGIOUS GROUP POLLED INCLUDING WHITE EVANGELICALS, SUPPORT THE NON-JIM THANKS LAWS BY AT LEAST 60%.

THE OPPOSITE IN 14 STATE LEGISLATURES ARE CONSIDERING BILLS TO RESTRICT THOSE LGBTQ RESIDENTS.

AND SO, LUKE, I'M WONDERING, ARE POLITICIANS OUT OF STEP WITH THE PUBLIC HERE?

>> I THINK THIS ILLUSTRATES THE STRONG REGIONAL DYNAMIC AND RELEVANCE OF SUBCULTURE IN THE UNITED STATES.

HAVING LIVED IN STATES LIKE MASSACHUSETTS AND NEW YORK AS WELL AS NEBRASKA AND UTAH, THERE ARE VERY DIFFERENT REGIONAL AT ATTITUDES TOWARDS THE ROLE OF GOVERNMENT IN SOCIETY GENERALLY, AND ATTITUDES TOWARDS SEXUAL MINORITIES.

AND SO I THINK WHAT WE ARE SEEING HERE IS A CONCERN THAT SCHOLARS OF THE LGBTQ COMMUNITY AND ADVOCATES HAVE HAD FOR A LONG TIME, SINCE THE DECISION CREATED MARRIAGE EQUALITY, THERE WAS GREAT ENTHUSIASM, OF COURSE, BUT ALSO A WORRY THAT MOMENTUM FOR EXPANDING RIGHTS OF MARGINALIZED PEOPLE IN THIS CASE WAS HASTE INNED HASTENED AND SOME ARGUED AT THE TIME THAT HOUSING DISCRIMINATION AT THE FEDERAL LEVEL WAS AS IMPORTANT IF NOT MORE IMPORTANT AS SECURING MARRIAGE EQUALITY.

WHAT WE ARE SEEING AT THE STATE AND FEDERAL LEVEL IS NOT WIDESPREAD PROTECTIONS IN CERTAIN AREAS OF PEOPLE'S LIVES.

AND COMPLICATING MATTERS EVEN MORE IS THE ISSUE OF TRANSGENDER RIGHTS.

I THINK UNLIKE GAY AND LESBIAN PEOPLE WHO HAVE INCREASINGLY BECOME PUBLIC OVER THE LAST YEARS, FRIENDS, FAMILY, KNOW THEM AND GREATER SUPPORT FOR THESE PEOPLE, THE TRANSGENDER COMMUNITY IS AT A DIFFERENT POINT IN REGARDS TO UNDERSTANDING AND ACCEPTANCE, UNFORTUNATELY, IN AMERICAN SOCIETY.

I THINK THAT'S GOING TO CREATE CONTINUED DIFFICULTY FOR SECURING RELATED RIGHTS WHEN IT COMES TO DISCRIMINATION.

>> I THINK THAT WE DON'T PASS LAWS BY NATIONAL REFERENDUM IN THIS COUNTRY.

AND SO THE NATIONAL NUMBERS, THE 75% OF THE POPULATION IS IN SUPPORT OF THESE PROTECTION LAWS ISN'T AS RELEVANT AS LUKE SAID.

HAVE YOU TO GO DOWN AND LOOK AT THE LOCAL LEVELS.

AS WE'VE DISCUSSED ON THIS SHOW MANY TIMES, YOU KNOW, THAT CONGRESSIONAL DISTRICTS HAVE BEEN DEVELOPED IN SUCH A WAY THAT THEY ARE VERY HOMOGENEOUS WITH RESPECT TO A NUMBER OF THESE ISSUES.

SOME OF THESE DISTRICTS WILL BE 90% IN FAVOR AND SOME WILL ONLY BE 40% IN FAVOR.

SO SEEING THIS GET THROUGH EITHER THE HOUSE OR THE SENATE, IS GOING TO REQUIRE A WHOLE DIFFERENT SET OF POLITICAL OUTCOMES THAN IF WE WERE TO LOOK AT NATIONAL POLLS.

THE OTHER ISSUE IS, THERE SEEMS TO BE SOME CONTRADICTION IN HOW PEOPLE ANSWERED THESE QUESTIONS BECAUSE WHILE THE PERCENTAGE SAY THAT THEY'RE IN FAVOR OF LAWS PROTECTING LGBTQ RIGHTS IS INCREASING, SO IS THE PERCENTAGE OF AMERICANS THAT BELIEVE SMALL BUSINESSES SHOULD HAVE THE RIGHT TO REFUSE TO PROVIDE SERVICES TO GAY AND LESBIANS BASED ON THEIR RELIGIOUS BELIEFS.

THOSE ARE HARD TO RECONCILE.

AND SO THAT'S LED TO THE FAIRNESS FOR ALL ACT BEING CONSIDERED AS A COMPROMISE.

BUT I THINK WE ALSO NEED TO RECOGNIZE, LOOKING BACKWARDS, THAT RELIGIOUS BELIEFS WERE USED TO JUSTIFY DISCRIMINATION AGAINST BLACKS.

SO I THINK WE ARE A LONG WAY-- I THINK WE ARE GOING IN THE RIGHT DIRECTION, BUT I THINK THAT WE ARE NOT GOING TO MOVE AS QUICKLY AS PERHAPS SOME OF THESE NATIONAL POLL NUMBERS SUGGEST.

>> PETER, HE MENTIONED THE FAIRNESS FOR ALL ACT.

AND AS I UNDERSTAND THAT, THAT GIVES BASIC PROTECTIONS, BUT IT EXEMPTS SOME RELIGIOUS ORGANIZATIONS.

DO YOU THINK THAT'S A WORKABLE COMPROMISE OR FIRST STEP?

>> YEAH, AND YOU KNOW, ON ISSUES OF DISCRIMINATION, THE QUESTION OF COMPROMISE TO ACCOMPLISH POLITICAL GOALS, I FIND ESPECIALLY TRICKY BECAUSE THE LOGIC OF COMPROMISE AND, YOU KNOW, WHAT WE MIGHT SAY IMPROVING THE STATUS QUO OR GETTING LESS DISCRIMINATION IS A GREAT THING, BUT SHOULD YOU COMPROMISE ON APRIL AN ISSUE OF DISCRIMINATION?

THAT COMES BACK TO PUBLIC OPINION.

TO UNDERSTAND WHAT IS GOING TO HAPPEN IN POLICY, WE NEED TO UNDERSTAND PUBLIC OPINION, BUT ON ISSUES LIKE DISCRIMINATION, YOU KNOW, MAYBE IT'S NOT ABOUT PUBLIC OPINION.

THERE IS A RIGHT AND WRONG ANSWER WHEN IT COMES TO SOME OF THESE ISSUES.

AND SO IT'S REALLY HARD TO KNOW WHAT WILL HAPPEN BUT B: WHAT IS THE RIGHT APPROACH FOR ADVOCATES WHO SAY THERE IS-- WE ARE OBSERVING DISCRIMINATION ON THIS ISSUE AND IT SHOULD NOT BE ALLOWED?

>> JUST ONE LAST QUICK QUESTION.

LUKE, WHY DO YOU SEE THE STATES PUSHING TO PULL BACK THESE RIGHTS?

WHAT IS BEHIND THAT?

>> WELL, THERE IS A PARTISAN DIVIDE ON THIS, AND I THINK RELIGIOUS ADHERENCE IS A STRONG CONSTITUENCY OF THE REPUBLICAN PARTY.

AND I THINK THAT THERE ARE CONCERNS AMONG RELIGIOUS LEADERS ON A VARIETY OF FAITHS THAT THEIR ABILITY TO DO WHAT THEE HAVE BEEN DOING HAS BEEN UNDER ASSAULT AND LIMITED AND THEY'RE TRYING TO EXERCISE THE FREEDOM.

THERE ARE TENSIONS BETWEEN RELIGIOUS FREEDOM AND EQUALITY WHEN IT COMES TO NON-DISCRIMINATION.

>> WELL, IT IS TIME FOR US TO OPEN UP THE GRADEBOOK AND RICK, TELL US WHO IS GETTING YOUR F THIS WEEK.

>> MY F GOES TO GEORGIAN REPUBLICANS FOR PASSING A LAW TO MAKE IT MORE DIFFICULT TO VOTE.

FEATURES INCLUDE A RIGID VOTER I.D.

REQUIREMENT AND GIVING THE LEGISLATURE MUCH MORE CONTROL OVER LOCAL ELECTION BOARDS.

IN FACT, THEY EVEN MADE IT A CRIME TO PROVIDE SOMEONE IN A LONG VOTING LINE WITH WATER OR FOOD.

>> AND PETER, YOUR F. >> I WANT TO ENDORSE RICK'S GRADE AND TAKE IT A STEP FURTHER.

MY F GOES TO THE GEORGIA CAPITOL POLICE FOR ARRESTING STATE REPRESENTATIVE PARK CANNON WHEN SHE KNOCKED ON GOVERNOR BRIAN KEMP'S OFFICE DOOR WHILE HE WAS SIGNING THE BILL TO MAKE IT HARDER TO VOTE IN GEORGIA THAT RICK DESCRIBED.

THE ARREST, HANDCUFFS AND FORCED REMOVAL OF REPRESENTATIVE CANNON FOR KNOCKING ON THE DOOR WERE COMPLETELY INAPPROPRIATE.

>> AND LUKE, YOUR F TODAY.

>> SAME ISSUE.

DIFFERENT PLACE.

CLOSER TO HOME.

NY 22 IS THE F THAT KEEPS ON GIVING.

THIS WEEK THE DEPARTMENT OF JUSTICE DETERMINED THAT LOCAL ELECTION OFFICIALS VIOLATED THE FEDERAL RIGHTS OF VOTERS IN THE 2020 ELECTION AND THE DEPARTMENT WILL SUE UNLESS A SETTLEMENT IS REACHED.

>> WOW.

I HAD NOT HEARD ABOUT THAT ONE.

WELL, RICK, SOMEBODY DID WELL TODAY.

HOW ABOUT YOUR A.

>> MY A TO PRESIDENT BUSH FOR HIS PERFORMANCE PRESIDENT BIDEN FOR HIS PERFORMANCE P IN HIS FIRST FULL SCALE PRESS MEETING.

THERE WERE FEARS, YOU KNOW, FROM THE PAST THAT HE TENDS TO MAKE VERBAL GAFFS AND THE LIKE.

BUT HE DID A VERY SOLID JOB.

HE STILL HELD OUT WILLINGNESS TO WORK IN BIPARTISANSHIP BUT MADE IT CLEAR THAT FACING ROAD BLOCKS HE MAY TRY TO FIND WAYS AROUND THAT, A VERY SOLID JOB.

>> PETER YOUR A.

NOT ALL AREAS ARE TRYING TO LIMIT VOTING SO MY A GOES TO LEGISLATORS IN OREGON WHO HAVE INTRODUCED A BILL THAT WOULD ALLOW THOSE CURRENTLY IN PRIS TON VOTE.

IF THE BILL PASSES, OREGON WOULD JOIN MAINE AND VERMONT, THE ONLY OTHER STATES WHO ALLOW THOSE CURRENTLY INCARCERATED TO VOTE.

THE CHANGE WOULD EXTEND DEMOCRATIC REPRESENTATION IN ORGANIZE GONE AND OTHER OREGON AND OTHER STATES SHOULD FOLLOW.

P. >> WE'LL TRY TO WATCH AND SEE IF THAT PASSES.

LUKE, WHO GETS YOUR A?

>> SENATOR SCHUMER.

THIS WEEK SENATOR SCHUMER VISITED UTICA AND TOUTED RECENT COVID RELIEF TO THE CITY'S CULINARY INDUSTRY.

SCHUMER EARNED BIPARTISAN PRAISE FROM LOCAL LEADERS FOR THE ACCESSIBILITY DURING THE PANDEMIC AND SECURING FEDERAL MONEY FOR CENTRAL NEW YORK.

MARKET LEADER FROM OUR STATE, IRRESPECTIVE OF YOUR POLITICAL VIEWS IS PARTICULARLY HELPFUL, PARTICULARLY IN THESE DIFFICULT TIMES.

>> WE HEARD FROM LAWRENCE WILLIAMS WHO WROTE US AND COMMENTS ON LAST WEEK'S DISCUSSION ABOUT THE FILIBUSTER AND AGREED WITH THE PANELISTS WHO SAY THE FLUB FILIBUSTER MUST GO SAYING LAWS ARE PREFERABLE TO EXECUTIVE ORDER.

PLEASE JOIN HIM AND WRITE US.

WE WOULD LIKE TO HEAR FROM YOU ABOUT THESE TOPICS OR OTHERS THAT WOULD YOU LIKE TO DISCUSS.

YOU CAN WRITE US AT THE ADDRESSES ON THE SCREEN AND IF YOU MISS THE SHOW ANY FRIDAY, IT REPEATS SATURDAY AFTERNOONS AT 5:30.

YOU CAN FIND IT ONLINE ANY TIME AT WCNY.ORG.

AND GOOD NIGHT.