JOINING ME IN THE CENTER RING TO FURTHER EXPLORE THE RIGHTS EXTENDED TO IMMIGRANTS IS IMMIGRATION POLICY EXPERT, LAURA COLLINS, OF THE BUSH INSTITUTE IN DALLAS, TEXAS.

WELCOME, LAURA.

THANK YOU FOR HAVING ME.

I'M HAPPY TO TALK TO YOU AND TALK ABOUT SOMETHING THAT HAS BEEN VEXING THE COUNTRY FOR A LONG TIME AND THAT'S IMMIGRATION.

IN PARTICULAR, I HAVE A QUESTION TO START OFF WITH.

THERE IS A LOT OF CONFUSION ABOUT IT.

AND THAT IS DO INDIVIDUALS THAT ARE HERE ILLEGALLY OR EVEN IF THEY HAVE STATUS, DO THEY HAVE ANY DUE PROCESS RIGHTS?

>> YOU KNOW, THIS IS ACTUALLY A REALLY EASY QUESTION.

YOU DON'T EVEN KNOW A LAW DEGREE TO FIND THE ANSWER TO THIS.

YOU CAN JUST PULL UP A COPY OF THE CONSTITUTION MUCH AND IT STATES VERY CLEARLY, PLACES WHERE THE CONSTITUTION APPLIES TO PEOPLE AND TERRENCE AND WHERE THE CONSTITUTION APPLIES FOR CITIZENS.

FOR DUE PROCESS RIGHTS IT APPLIES TO PERSONS AND WHAT THAT SIMPLY MEANS IS THAT THE SAME RIGHTS THAT EXTEND TO YOU AND ME AS U.S. CITIZENS, ALSO EXTEND TO THEM.

THERE ARE A FEW EXCEPTIONS AND CAVEATS DEPENDING ON WHAT HAS BEEN WRITTEN INTO LAW BUT FOR THE MOST PART, IMMIGRANTS, REGARDLESS OF THEIR STATUS HAVE DUE PROCESS RIGHTS.

>> LET'S MAKE SURE EVERYONE IS PERFECTLY CLEAR WHAT WE MEAN BY DUE PROCESS.

DUE PROCESS MEANS THEY HAVE A RIGHT TO A HEARING AND THEY PUT THE GOVERNMENT TO ITS PROOF.

IN OTHER WORDS, IF THE GOVERNMENT THINKS YOU ARE AN ILLEGAL IMMIGRANT, THEY HAVE TO BASICALLY PROVE THAT IN A HEARING, IS THAT CORRECT?

>> THAT'S CORRECT IN ALMOST EVERY SINGLE CASE.

THERE IS AN EXCEPTION CALLED EXPEDITED REMOVAL, WHERE YOU DON'T NECESSARILY NEED THE SAME SORT OF HEARING IN FRONT OF AN IMMIGRATION JUDGE BUT THAT IS A NARROW EXCEPTION FOR THE MOST PART.

ALMOST EVERY SINGLE IMMIGRANT WHETHER THEY'RE HERE WITH THE STATUS OR NOT IS ENTITLED TO THE HEARING.

>> THAT DLIN DELINEATES THE FIFTH AMENDMENT RIGHT?

>> YES.

>> AND WITHIN THE FIFTH AMENDMENT THEY DON'T REFER TO CITIZENS.

THEY REFER TO PERSONS, IS THAT RIGHT AND THAT'S THE DIFFERENCE, RIGHT?

THAT MEANS BECAUSE IT REFERS TO PERSONS, IT MEANS THAT ANYBODY, WHETHER YOU ARE HERE LEGALLY OR ILLEGALLY, YOU HAVE DUE PROCESS RIGHTS, RIGHT?

>> YES.

>> HAVE COURTS INTERPRETED THAT AS SUCH?

>> YES, I BELIEVE SO.

THIS IS A LONG STANDING AREA OF LAW.

IT IS NOT SOMETHING THAT IS NEW AND WHILE THAT PROCESS MAY BE SLOW AT TIMES, AND CAN BE FRUSTRATING IF YOU ARE THE GOVERNMENT TRYING TO CARRY OUT REMOVALS, IT STILL EXISTS AND EXISTS TO PROTECT NOT JUST THE MIGRANTS BUT EXISTS TO PROTECT YOU AND ME.

>> GOT IT.

NOW AS YOU KNOW, AND WE ALL KNOW, THERE ARE DIFFERENT GRADATIONS OF PEOPLE HERE IN THE UNITED STATES THAT ARE NOT CITIZENS.

YOU HAVE PEOPLE THAT ARE HERE COMPLETELY ILLEGALLY, JUST SNUCK INTO THE COUNTRY.

HAVE YOU PEOPLE THAT HAVE DIFFERENT STATUS MAYBE A STUDENT VISA OR HERE ON A WORK VISA OR HAVE THEIR GREEN CARD, WHATEVER.

SO DO THEIR RIGHTS DIFFER BASED ON THE STATUS THAT THE INDIVIDUAL HAS WHEN THEY'RE HERE?

>> THEY DO THE MARGINS.

I WOULD SAY THAT FOR THE SORT OF BIG CONSTITUTIONAL QUESTIONS, THOSE PROTECTIONS ARE THE SAME FOR EVERYBODY.

BUT WE KNOW THAT THERE ARE DIFFERENCES ACCORDING TO THE TYPE OF VISA THAT YOU HAVE, THERE ARE TERMS TO MAKE SURE THAT VISA APPLIES.

WE KNOW HAVE YOU MORE PROTECTIONS IF YOU ARE A LEGAL PERMANENT RESIDENT OR GREEN CARD HOLDER, FOR EXAMPLE.

BUT AT THE END OF THE DAY, IF YOU ARE SUBJECT TO REMOVAL PROCEEDINGS, ALMOST EVERY SINGLE PERSON WHO HAS BEEN MARKED FOR REMOVAL OR HAS BEEN ACCUSED OF DOING SOMING THAT WOULD VIOLATE THEIR VISA HAS THE OPPORTUNITY FOR A HEARING IN FRONT OF AN IMMIGRATION JUDGE.

>> OKAY.

SO YOU SAID IMMIGRATION JUDGE.

THAT'S WHERE I WANTED TO GO NEXT.

IF YOU HAVE TO HAVE A HEARING, YOU HAVE TO HAVE A JUDGE PRESIDING OVER THAT HEARING OR AN INDIVIDUAL EQUIVALENT TO A JUDGE.

DO WE HAVE ENOUGH JUDGES IN THE COUNTRY TO HANDLE THIS MASSIVE BACKLOG OF PEOPLE THAT ARE HERE ILLEGALLY?

>> IMMIGRATION JUDGES IS ONE OF THOSE PLACES WHERE THERE IS A LARGE BOTTLE NECK.

THIS ADMINISTRATION HAS PROMISED HIGH NUMBERS OF REMOVALS BECAUSE OF THE DUE PROCESS RIGHTS, THERE ARE NOT ENOUGH IMMIGRATION JUDGES TO HEAR THE CASES AND THAT'S TRUE WHETHER YOU ARE TRYING TO REMOVE PEOPLE OR WHETHER YOU ARE LOOKING AT THE ASYLUM SYSTEM WHERE PEOPLE ARE TRYING TO AFFIRMATIVELY GAIN A LEGAL STATUS HERE.

THERE IS NOT ENOUGH IMMIGRATION JUDGES TO REALLY HEAR THOSE CASES AS WELL AND SO THAT IS A PLACE WHERE THERE IS A SIGNIFICANT BOTTLE NECK TO THE PROCESS MOVING QUICKLY.

>> SO HAS THERE BEEN AN EFFORT TO FIX THIS BACKLOG AND GET MORE IMMIGRATION JUDGES?

AND IF THERE HAS AN EFFORT, WHY HASN'T IT COME TO FRUITION?

>> I FEEL EVERY SINGLE ATTEMPT TO RORP THE LAST FEW YEARS HAS INCLUDED A PROPOSAL TO INCREASE THE NUMBER OF IMMIGRATION JUDGES.

YOU KNOW, YOU CAN'T JUST SNAP YOUR FINGERS AND DO IT, EVEN IF YOU INCREASE THE FUNDING AVAILABLE, HAVE YOU TO GO HIRE THEM AND THEY'RE EXECUTIVE BRANCH POSITIONS SO IT DOES TAKE SOME TIME TO STAFF UP AND FIND PEOPLE WHO CAN BE IMMIGRATION JUDGES.

HAVE YOU TO ESTABLISH AND THEY HAVE TO FIND A DOCKET, WHERE YOU ARE GOING TO PUT THEM.

SO THERE IS, AGAIN, A PROCESS TO THAT AS WELL.

YOU CANNOT JUST SIMPLY ADD IMMIGRATION JUDGES QUICKLY AND EXPECT THAT THE PROBLEM WILL GO AWAY BECAUSE THE BACKLOG RIGHT NOW IS MILLIONS OF CASES.

>> AND THERE IS ANOTHER ASPECT OF THE MINIMUM WAGE GRACE ISSUE, AT LEAST-- FOR THE IMMIGRATION ISSUES CAUGHT AT THE BORDER ON A REGULAR BASIS.

THE EXTRAORDINARILY HIGH NUMBER OF INDIVIDUALS CAUGHT ARE CLAIMING ASYLUM AND WHEN YOU CLAIM ASYLUM, CERTAIN THINGS KICK IN RIGHT AWAY UNDER U.S. LAW.

CAN YOU BRIEFLY EXPLAIN THAT ASPECT TO IT TO THE AMERICAN PEOPLE?

>> SURE, IF YOU REQUEST ASYLUM, THAT MEANS THAT YOU ARE AFRAID OF RETURNING TO YOUR HOME COUNTRY.

UNDER U.S. LAW, YOU ARE ENTITLED TO A CREDIBLE FEAR INTERVIEW AND IN FRONT OF AN IMMIGRATION JUDGE TO MAKE SURE WE ARE NOT SENDING BACK PEOPLE WHO MIGHT BE PERSECUTED BY THEIR HOME GOVERNMENT, MIGHT BE TORTURED, SO THERE ARE ADDITIONAL RIGHTS THAT COME WITH REQUESTING ASYLUM.

FOR A LOT OF THE FOLKS AT THE BORDER, IT'S THEIR ONLY LEGAL PATHWAY TO THE UNITED STATES.

I KNOW IT FEELS LIKE IT'S NOT A LEGAL PATHWAY BECAUSE WE SEE SO MANY PEOPLE AT THE BORDER REQUESTING IT.

BUT THESE ARE PEOPLE, EVEN IF THEY QUALIFIED FOR A WORK VISA, FOR EXAMPLE, THERE IS JUST NOT ENOUGH OF THOSE TO GO AROUND.

MAYBE THE COMPANIES DON'T RECRUIT IN THEIR HOME COUNTRY.

MAYBE THEY DON'T HAVE A FAMILY MEMBER IN THE UNITED STATES WHO COULD SPONSOR THEM OR MAYBE THE GREEN CARD BACKLOG IS TOO LONG.

THERE ARE A LOT OF PEOPLE WHO ARE SEEKING OPPORTUNITY AND FREEDOM, THINGS THAT WE HAVE IN THE UNITED STATES.

ASYLUM IS A LEGAL PATHWAY TORE THEM AND ONE OF THE ONLY ONES AVAILABLE.

>> ONE OTHER SUBJECT, WHEN THEY COME ACROSS THE BORDER, FOR EXAMPLE, OR WHEN SOMEONE IS FOUND TO BE HERE ILLEGALLY, DO WE HAVE THE RIGHT TO DETAIN THEM PENDING THE HEARING THAT THEY'RE OWED?

>> YEAH, I BELIEVE SO.

I THINK THERE ARE SOME LIMITATIONS ON THAT DEPENDING ON YOUR AGE.

OBVIOUSLY THERE IS A LIMITATION ON THAT, NOT JUST IN THE RIGHT SPHERE BUT CAPACITY SPHERE.

WE DON'T HAVE ENOUGH DETENTION BEDS TO DETAIN ALL OF THE PEOPLE WHO ARE UNDOCUMENTED HERE IN THE UNITED STATES.

WE CERTAINLY CAN DETAIN PEOPLE FOR AN AMOUNT OF TIME, BUT IT IS NOT NECESSARILY UNIVERSAL.

THAT'S WHY ALTERNATIVES TO DETENTION EXIST.

THAT IS A TOOL THAT GOVERNMENTS, WHETHER REPUBLICAN OR DEMOCRAT ADMINISTRATIONS HAVE USED OVER THE TIME TO MONITOR PEOPLE WHO ARE HERE WITHOUT AUTHORIZATION, MAKE SURE THEY SHOW UP TO THEIR COURT HEARINGS, SO WE KNOW WHERE THEY ARE.

NOT EVERYONE IS DETAINED BUT THERE IS A RIGHT TO DETAIN THEM.

>> BECAUSE OF THE DRASTIC LACK OF BEDS TO DETAIN THESE INDIVIDUALS, PEOPLE ARE HERE ILLEGALLY ARE ARRESTED AND ENTER BASICALLY-- PAROLED INTO THE COUNTRY BECAUSE WE DON'T HAVE THE CAPACITY TO KEEP THEM, IS THAT RIGHT?

>> YOU KNOW, I THINK WE HAVE SOMETHING LIKE 50,000 PEOPLE DETAINED AT THE MOMENT, SO WE DO HAVE A FAIRLY LARGE CAPACITY.

AND WITH BORDER NUMBERS BEING LOW, IT'S NOT REALLY THE BORDER THAT'S DRIVING THOSE NUMBERS AT THIS POINT.

IT'S THE INTERIOR REMOVALS.

BUT NOT EVERYONE IS GOING TO BE DETAINED, OBVIOUSLY IF YOU ARE A VULNERABLE POPULATION IT MAY NOT MAKE SENSE TO DETAIN YOU.

FAMILIES IN PARTICULAR ARE DIFFICULT TO DETAIN.

THERE ARE LOTS OF DIFFERENT SAFEGUARDS THAT GO INTO PLACE TO MAKE SURE IT IS THE RIGHT ENVIRONMENT FOR CHILDREN, FOR EXAMPLE, SO NOT EVERYONE IS APPROPRIATE FOR A DETENTION ENVIRONMENT.

SO THE GOVERNMENT HAS TO MAKE DECISIONS ON THAT.

WE'VE SEEN WHAT HAPPENS WHEN WE TRY TO DETAIN EVERYBODY.

IT QUICKLY RESULTS IN OVERCROWDING AND A SITUATION THAT DOESN'T, IS NOT WORKABLE FOR THE AGENCIES, NOT WORKABLE FOR ANYBODY.

SO IT'S A LITTLE BIT OF A CAPACITY ISSUE AND A LITTLE BIT OF WHAT MAKES THE MOST SENSE TO MAKE THIS SYSTEM RUN?

>> WELL YOU SHED SOME GREAT LIGHT ON THE SITUATION THAT HAS BEEN A LONG, LONG PROBLEM THAT HAS VEXED MANY ADMINISTRATIONS I APPRECIATE YOUR INSIGHT, THANK YOU VERY MUCH.