FEMA AND THE CATASTROPHIC TEXAS FLOOD.

HAS THE GOVERNMENT LOST ITS CAPACITY FOR DISASTER RELIEF?

GOOD EVENING.

WELCOME TO IVORY TOWER.

I'M DAVID CHANATRY, FROM UTICA UNIVERSITY.

OUR PANELISTS THIS WEEK ARE SARAH PRALLE FROM SYRACUSE UNIVERSITY, ANIRBAN ACHARYA FROM LEMOYNE COLLEGE, AND MAKING A GUEST APPEARANCE VIA ZOOM, BOB SPITZER FROM SUNY CORTLAND.

THE CATASTROPHIC FLOODS IN TEXAS HAVE FOCUSED ATTENTION ON THE ADMINISTRATION'S EFFORTS TO REFORM-OR ABOLISH- FEMA, THE FEDERAL EMERGENCY MANAGEMENT AGENCY.

WE LEARNED THIS WEEK THAT FEMA GRANTED WAIVERS TO THE GIRLS CAMP THAT WAS HIT SO HARD, KEEPING ITS BUILDINGS OUT OF THE 100-YEAR FLOOD MAP.

SARAH, YOU'VE STUDIED FLOOD MAPS EXTENSIVELY.

EVERY ARTICLE I READ ABOUT THIS QUOTED YOU.

WHAT IS THE SIGNIFICANCE OF THIS WAIVER?

>> WELL, A LITTLE BIT OF BACKGROUND FIRST, PERHAPS.

SO FEMA MAPS FLOOD ZONES ACROSS THE COUNTRY FOR COMMUNITIES TO TRY TO SHOW THE DIFFERENT RISK LEVELS FOR FLOODING.

AND ONE OF THE MOST WELL KNOWN NUMBERS IS THIS SO CALLED 100-YEAR FLOOD ZONE.

AND THOSE ARE THE AREAS THAT HAVE A 1% OR GREATER ANNUAL CHANCE OF FLOODING.

AND THAT CARRIES WEIGHT BECAUSE THESE BECOME OFFICIAL LINES ON A MAP.

AND ANY PROPERTIES WITHIN THOSE OFFICIAL LINES THAT HAVE A MORTGAGE HAVE TO PAY FLOOD INSURANCE.

THE OTHER THING IS THAT ANYTHING INSIDE THAT FLOOD LINE IS RESTRICTED IN TERMS OF DEVELOPMENT.

SO THEY MIGHT LIMIT THE NUMBER OF STRUCTURES BEING BUILT THERE OR THE WAY THEY'RE BEING BUILT.

SO ANYTHING THAT HAPPENS WITHIN THAT FLOOD ZONE IS MUCH MORE LIELY REGULATED.

SO THIS BECOMES IMPORTANT, RIGHT, THESE LINES, WHERE YOU DRAW TEASE LINES.

AND THE MAPS CHANGE.

THEY'RE NOT STATIC.

AND THERE IS AN INCENTIVE THEN FOR PROPERTY OWNERS AND COMMUNITIES AS WELL SOMETIMES, TO APPEAL TO FEMA AND TRY TO GET PIECES OF PROPERTY, SOMETIMES LARGE PIECES, SOMETIMES PARTICULAR STRUCTURES, DRAWN OUTSIDE OF THE FLOOD ZONE BECAUSE IT HAS MATERIAL INTERESTS, CONSEQUENCES, I SHOULD SAY, FOR THE COMMUNITIES AND FOR THE PROPERTY OWNERS.

>> SO IN THIS CASE, THE RIVER ROSE SO FAST, THAT WOULD IT HAVE MADE ANY DIFFERENCES WHETHER, YOU KNOW, IT GOT THAT EXCEPTION?

>> UNLIKELY, RIGHT?

WATER GOES WHERE IT NEEDS TO GO IN A FLOOD, AND IT DOESN'T ABIDE BY LINES THAT ARE ON A MAP.

HOWEVER, THERE IS A COUPLE WAYS IT MIGHT HAVE HAD AN IMPACT.

ONE IS THAT GETTING THESE WAIVERS MEANT THAT CERTAIN PROPERTIES WERE OUTSIDE OF THIS OFFICIAL FLOOD ZONE AND PROBABLY ALLOWED THE CAMP TO BUILD ADDITIONAL STRUCTURES IN THOSE MUCH MORE EASILY.

AND MUCH MORE CHEAPLY BECAUSE YOU DON'T HAVE TO BUILD THEM TO CODE.

BUT I THINK THE MORE IMPORTANT THING ABOUT THIS WHOLE STORY IS THAT IT'S A SORT OF CLUE, AN INDICATION, PERHAPS, THAT THE CAMP DIDN'T HAVE FLOOD MITIGATION, FLOOD RISK SORT OF CONCERNS AT THE TOP OF THEIR AGENDA BECAUSE IT TAKES TIME AND RESOURCES TO APPEAL THESE MAPS.

THIS IS NOT AN EASY PROCESS.

AND IT COSTS MONEY.

AND THEY'VE DONE SO NOW THREE TIMES IN THE LAST MANY YEARS, TRYING TO GET MULTIPLE STRUCTURES OUTSIDE OF THESE OFFICIAL FLOOD ZONES.

I THINK THAT TIME AND MONEY PERSONALLY WOULD HAVE BEEN MUCH BETTER SPENT TRYING TO MOVE BUILDINGS AWAY FROM THE RISK.

THEY HAD FOUR CABINS WITHIN THE FLOOD WAY, WHICH IS THE MOST DANGEROUS PART OF A FLOOD ZONE.

AND SO I'M JUST QUESTIONING WHAT THEIR PRIORITIES ARE.

>> NOW FEMA IS UNDER A LOT OF FIRE THESE DAYS.

DOES THE TRUMP ADMINISTRATION HAVE A POINT THAT FEMA IS NOT DOING ITS JOB VERY WELL AND SHOULD BE REFORMED OR SOME OF THE TASKS SHOULD BE SENT TO THE STATES?

>> EL WITH, I DON'T KNOW EXACTLY WHAT THE FEMA'S MANDATE IS IN TERMS OF HOW YOU BALANCE WITH THE STATE AND THE FEDERAL GOVERNMENT.

BUT YOU KNOW, THANK YOU FOR "THE IVORY TOWER" TO MAKE ME DO RESEARCH OUTSIDE MY DISCIPLINE.

WHAT I LEARNED IS THAT LAWMAKERS HAVE LONG DECLINED TO FIND OF FUND THE FEDERAL GOVERNMENT PROGRAM SUPPORTING NATIONWIDE FLOOD WARNING SYSTEMS.

THESE ARE IMPORTANT THINGS CALLED STREAM GAUGES I DIDN'T KNOW AND THE STREAM GAUGES ARE EXTREMELY IMPORTANT IN UNDERSTANDING HOW FAST THE WATER LEVEL IS RISING.

YOU CAN CALL PEOPLE AND SAY THE WATER LEVEL IS NOW RISING.

YOU CAN SEE A FLASH FLOOD IN THE NEXT ONE HOUR.

SO SYSTEMS FIRST DECLINED IN TRUMP'S FIRST ADMINISTRATION.

HE WANTED THE FEDERAL BUDGET OF THE FEDERAL AGENCY.

BUT THE WATER LEVEL GAUGES DECLINED FOR THE FIRST TIME SINCE CONGRESS UPGRADE THE THAT PROGRAM.

AS A RESULT, WHAT IS HAPPENING HERE IS THAT 99% OF AMERICA'S WATERWAYS ARE NOT CURRENTLY MONITORED BY SUCH SYSTEMS AND TO ANSWER YOUR QUESTION, FEMA SHOULD #-B EMPOWERED WITH THE MONEY AND RESOURCES TO HAVE-- WE SHOULD HAVE A NATIONWIDE FLOOD WARNING SYSTEM WITH STREAM GAUGES AT PARTICULAR LOCATIONS.

BUT WE ARE SEEING NOT JUST TRUMP ADMINISTRATION AND THE TRUMP ADMINISTRATION STARTED DECLINING, BUT YOU KNOW, THIS OUTLET LOOKED AT GOVERNMENT DOCUMENTS AND SAW THAT LAWMAKERS HAVE ALSO LONG DECLINED TO FUND THIS KIND OF NATIONWIDE INITIATIVE.

>> SO, BOB, BOB SPITZER, GIVEN FEMA'S TROUBLES HERE, I MEAN WHAT CAN IT DO TO IMPROVE?

>> WELL, THERE IS A LOT AT STAKE HERE.

AND IT'S JUST FEMA.

THERE ARE SEVERAL FEDERAL AGENCIES THAT COME INTO PLAY.

A KEY REASON WHY FEMA IS IMPORTANT IS BECAUSE THE STATES BY AND LARGE DON'T HAVE THE RESOURCES TO COVER THE COSTS ASSOCIATED WITH DEVASTATING WEATHER AND RELATED EVENTS.

AND THAT'S A KEY REASON WHY YOU WANT THE FEDERAL GOVERNMENT INVOLVED.

SECONDLY, NATURAL DISASTERS DON'T NECESSARILY FOLLOW STATE BOUNDARIES.

AND SO HERE AGAIN THE FEDERAL GOVERNMENT'S ROLE IS KEY.

TO TAKE THE EXAMPLE OF THE DIFFERENT AGENCY, THE U.S. GEOLOGIC SURVEY MAINTAINS 8,000 GAUGES IN BODIES OF WATER AROUND THE COUNTRY AND THEY'RE ABLE TO SEND REAL TIME DATA BACK TO A CENTRAL LOCATION TO THEN SPREAD INFORMATION AROUND TO AFFECTED AREAS WHERE IMPENDING FLOODS ARE LIKELY TO OCCUR OR PERHAPS ARE IN THE PROCESS OF OCCURRING.

BUT THE BUDGET FOR THE GEOLOGIC SURVEY IS CUT BY 22%.

THIS IS A MAN BY THE NAME OF PAUL EUROPE, NONE OF YOU HAVE EVER HEARD OF, ME NEITHER, BUT HE WAS A NATIONAL WEATHER SERVICE EMPLOYEE IN CHARGE OF WARNING COORDINATION; THAT IS TO SAY HE WAS THE FALL GUY TO GET INFORMATION FROM ONE SOURCE TO GET IT TO LOCALITIES.

AND HE WAS LAID OFF JUST SHORTLY BEFORE THE TEXAS FLOOD DISASTER.

FEMA IS BEING CUT BY 25% STAFF RIGHT NOW, ANOTHER 20% OF FEMA STAFF IS GOING TO BE GONE BY THE END OF THE YEAR.

FUNDING AT THE NATIONAL WEATHER SERVICEALLIES-- SERVICE INCLUDES NOOA HAS BEEN CUT BY 2,000 PEOPLE.

THESE ARE ALL THE OFFICES WHETHER EFFICIENT OR INEFFICIENT, THAT ARE CRITICAL TO ADDRESS NATIONAL DISASTER PROBLEMS AND THESE PROBLEMS ARE ONLY GOING TO GET WORSE.

THE GOVERNMENT SHOULD BE DOUBLING DOWN ON THEM, NOT CLOSING THESE OFFICES DOWN AS THE TRUMP ADMINISTRATION IS DOING.

>> SO THERE WAS A G.A.O.

REPORT LAST YEAR WHICH SAID FEMA WAS STRETCHED THIN AND NOW YOU ADD IN WHAT BOB HAS JUST MENTIONED.

THE FIRST RULE IS TO BE PREPARED, RIGHT?

BOY SCOUTS MOTTO, BE PREPARED.

AND MAYBE FEMA WASN'T PREPARED.

IS THAT FAIR TO SAY?

>> WELL, I THINK LIKE ANIRBAN SAID, SOME OF THIS IS CONGRESS' PROBLEM, RIGHT?

POLITICIANS TYPICALLY DON'T GET REWARDED FOR PREVENTING BAD THINGS FROM HAPPENING.

THEY GET REWARDED FOR COMING IN AND GIVING, YOU KNOW, RELIEF MONEY, RIGHT?

AND TALKING ABOUT CLEANUP.

SO WE UNDERINVEST IN PREVENTION, WHICH IS TERRIBLE BECAUSE EVERY DOLLAR THAT YOU SPEND ON PREVENTION SAVES YOU MULTIPLE DOLLARS, AND I'VE HEARD FIGURES 6, 7, $10 FOR EVERY DOLLAR SPENT BUT THERE IS NOT THE SAME POLITICAL INCENTIVES TO DO SO.

THAT DOESN'T MEAN THEY DON'T SPEND ANY MONEY ON IT BUT RIGHT NOW THE TRUMP ADMINISTRATION IS CUTTING MONEY TO A PROGRAM THAT IS MEANT TO BEEF UP OUR INFRASTRUCTURE AND MAKE IT MORE FLOOD PROOF.

AND THAT'S IMPORTANT MONEY.

ITS UNDER FUNDED AS IS AND HE IS GOING TO CUT THAT AS TREL.

>> PRESIDENT TRUMP HAS BEEN BASKING IN THE GLOW OF GETTING HIS BIG, BEAUTIFUL BILL PASSED AND SIGNED INTO LAW.

THERE IS SO MUCH JAMMED INTO THIS LAW-HENCE THE NAME--THAT THERE HAVE BEEN A NUMBER OF SURPRISES, EVEN TO PEOPLE WHO VOTED FOR IT.

WHAT ABOUT OUR PANEL•.WHAT IS IN THE BILL THAT EITHER SURPRISED YOU OR HAS BASICALLY GONE UNDER THE RADAR TO THE GENERAL PUBLIC?

BOB, WE'LL START WITH YOU?

>> LET ME MENTION TWO THINGS.

THERE IS A LOT TO TALK ABOUT IN THIS BILL.

ONE IS THE TRUMP SAID HE WOULD GET RID OF THE CHIPSZ ACT,-- CHIPS ACT WHICH SUBSIDIZED DOMESTIC SEMICONDUCTOR MANUFACTURING BECAUSE WE HAVE BEEN HEAVILY RELIANT ON SEMICONDUCTORS FROM CHINA, AND OF COURSE CHINA IS AN ADVERSARY.

BUT DESPITE INSISTING THAT HE WANTED TO ELIMINATE THAT PROGRAM, THE BUDGET BILL ACTUALLY INCREASED IT BY 40%, WHICH I THINK IS A GOOD THING.

BUT THAT WAS A SURPRISE.

>> WE SHOULD POINT OUT, TOO, THAT'S SIGNIFICANT HERE IN CENTRAL NEW YORK WITH THE MICRON DEVELOPMENT COMING.

>> YES, ABSOLUTELY RIGHT.

THE MAJOR DEVELOPMENT IN CENTRAL NEW YORK.

THE OTHER THING I WOULD MENTION IS THAT ONE OF THE THINGS THIS LAW DOES IS REMOVE THE $200 TAX ON THE ACQUISITION OF GUN SILENCERS OF SAWED OFF SHOTGUNS AND SHORT BARRELED RIFLES.

THE REASON THESE THINGS ARE LUMPED TOGETHER BECAUSE THEY WERE ALL SUBJECT TO REGULATIONS IN A FEDERAL LAW PASSED WAY BACK IN 1934 CALLED THE NATIONAL FIREARMS ACT.

AND THE GOVERNMENT, BACK THEN, PASSED A LAW SAYING YOU COULD BUY THESE THINGS BUT HAVE YOU TO JUMP THROUGH A NUMBER OF HOOPS.

PAY A $200 TAX, YOU HAD TO BE FINGERPRINTED, OR SUBMIT A PHOTOGRAPH, UNDERGO A SIGNIFICANT BACKGROUND CHECK.

AND THE IDEA WAS TO DETER THEIR USE IN CRIME BECAUSE THESE WERE ALL CRIMINAL WEAPONS.

AND GUESS WHAT?

THAT LAW HAS BEEN HIGHLY EFFECTIVE.

WELL, IN THIS BILL THAT ARRIVED FROM THE HOUSE OF REPRESENTATIVES, ALL OF THAT STUFF WAS TO BE STRIPPED OUT; HOWEVER, BECAUSE OF A RULING OF THE SENATE PARLIAMENTARIAN, ONLY THE $200 FEE WAS REMOVED, MEANING IF YOU WANT TO BUY A SILENCER FOR WHATEVER REASON, YOU STILL HAVE TO HAVE A BACKGROUND CHECK AND FINGERPRINTED, ET CETERA, WHICH FRANKLY IS MUCH MORE IMPORTANT THAN THE $200.

SO IT'S INTERESTING THAT ALL OF THAT SURVIVED.

>> ANIRBAN, WHAT ABOUT YOU?

>> WELL, YOU KNOW, THIS BIG BEAUTIFUL ACT OR ABA, I TALKED ABOUT THIS, I SAID THIS IS A TOUR DEFORCE IN GRATUITOUS CRUELTY AGAINST POOR POPULATIONS.

A COUPLE OF THINGS HERE.

SO YOU KNOW, THE BILL BLOCKS IMPLEMENTATION OF AN EXISTING REGULATION THAT MAKES IT EASIER FOR INELIGIBLE LOW INCOME MEDICARE BENEFICIARIES TO ENROLL IN THE MEDICARE SAVINGS PROGRAM.

IT WILL MAKE IT MUCH MORE HARDER AND THE PREMIUMS AND OUT OF POCKET COSTS WILL GO UP.

SECOND THERE IS A BIPARTISAN SNAP PROGRAM THAT GOT RID OF SOME PAPER REQUIREMENTS FOR VULNERABLE GROUPS OF AMERICANS LIKE VETERANS, YOU KNOW, AND AS A RESULT, PEOPLE WILL EXPERIENCE HOMELESSNESS, YOUTH AGING OUT OF FOSTER CARE, YOU KNOW, ALL THIS STUFF, THEY WERE EXEMPTED FROM THESE, NOW THEY HAVE THESE EXTRA PAPER REQUIREMENTS AND CBO ESTIMATES THIS WILL KICK OUT 270,000 IN CATEGORY OF FOOD ASSISTANCE.

AND I DON'T WANT TO GO ON AND ON, BUT IF YOU READ A COUPLE OF THINGS, A 10 YEAR MORATORIUM OF STATE LEVEL ENFORCEMENT OF LAWS REGULATING ARTIFICIAL INTELLIGENCE.

I DON'T KNOW WHAT THAT MEANS.

DOES IT MEAN THERE CANNOT BE ANY ENVIRONMENTAL LAW THAT WE CAN PUT ON, YOU KNOW, THIS PASSIVE GAS GUZZLING ELECTRICITY GUZZLING DATA CENTERS.

I DON'T KNOW.

AND WE CAN TALK ABOUT THIS ONE IN A SEPARATE PROGRAM.

IT REALLY DEINCENTIVIZES HIGHER EDUCATION.

IT MAKES IT WAY HARD FOR PEOPLE TO HAVE GRAD LOANS, AND PAY FOR THEIR EDUCATION AT THE HIGHER EDUCATION LEVEL.

THAT WILL HIT A LOT OF-- IT WILL HIT CLOSER TO HOME TO A LOT OF EDUCATORS AND COLLEGES.

SO THESE ARE THE THINGS... >> SARAH, ANIRBAN GAVE US A RUN DOWN OF A LOT OF THINGS HE DOESN'T LIKE ABOUT THE BILL.

WHAT SURPRISED YOU?

>> WELL, THERE ARE A SOT OF THINGS I DON'T LIKE, TOO.

NO SURPRISE THERE, I GUESS.

AND I WILL JUST, ANOTHER EDUCATION PROVISION IN HERE, WHICH I THINK IS REALLY PROBLEMATIC, THERE IS GOING TO BE A HUGE TRANSFER OF TAXPAYER DOLLARS TO PRIVATE SCHOOL VOUCHERS.

SO RIGHT NOW IF I'M SOMEONE WHO WANTS TO SEND MY KID TO A PRIVATE SCHOOL, THERE ARE NON-PROFITS WHO WILL, I CAN APPLY FOR A SCHOLARSHIP TO GET MONEY TO SEND MY KID TO A PRIVATE SCHOOL.

BUT THOSE NON-PROFITS HAVE TO RAISE MONEY IN ORDER TO GIVE THAT SCHOLARSHIP MONEY AWAY.

AND HOW DO THEY DO THAT?

THEY ASK FOR DONATIONS.

RIGHT NOW THIS THIS BILL, THE LAW NOW ACTUALLY, YOU CAN GET A BIG TAX WRITE-OFF IF YOU DONATE TO ONE OF THESE NON-PROFITS THAT THEN GIVE SCHOLARSHIPS TO PRIVATE SCHOOLS.

DOLLAR FOR DOLLAR, I MEAN IT'S A VERY GENEROUS WAY.

SO THEY'RE GOING TO BE ABLE TO RAISE LOADS AND LOADS OF MONEY.

THAT'S MONEY THAT THE TAXPAYERS ARE NOT GETTING, RIGHT?

WE ARE PAYING THAT TAX CREDIT.

AND THAT'S BEING FUNNELED TO PRIVATE SCHOOLS, SOME ESTIMATES SAY LIKE $51 BILLION IT COULD COST THE GOVERNMENT PER YEAR.

I PAY MY TAXES FOR SCHOOL.

I TOTALLY SUPPORT PUBLIC EDUCATION.

I DO NOT BANT MY TAX DOLLARS GOING TO PRIVATE SCHOOLS AND I DON'T THINK MOST PEOPLE DO.

>> SO ONE OF THE THINGS ABOUT THIS BILL IS BECAUSE IT'S THE BIG-- ABA, AS YOU PUT IT, EVERYTHING IS KIND OF JAMMED IN HERE BUT THERE ARE SOME OTHER ASPECTS THAT PEOPLE-- OVERALL THE BILL HASN'T POLLED WELL BUT THERE ARE THINGS PEOPLE WILL LIKE.

ONE OF THE THINGS THAT SURPRISED ME, I HAD NO IDEA ABOUT THE AUTO LOAN INTEREST DEDUCTION.

THAT'S GOING TO MAKE A CREDIT, I BELIEVE AND IN THE STANDARD DEDUCTION, TOO.

SO THAT IS SOMETHING.

>> THEY'RE GETTING RID OF THE TAXES FOR EV, THE TAX BREAKS FOR EVS, RIGHT AND THEY'RE NOT TAXING OIL AND GAS DRILLING.

SO THERE IS A LOT MORE TO HATE IN THIS.

>> OKAY, SINCE WE ARE NOW DISCUSSING ENERGY, GOVERNOR HOCHUL IS PUSHING NUCLEAR POWER AS A WAY FOR NEW YORK TO MEET IT'S AMBITIOUS CLIMATE GOALS.

SHE ANNOUNCED LAST MONTH THE STATE IS PLANNING ON BUILDING A ONE THOUSAND MEGAWATT NUCLEAR POWER SOMEWHERE UPSTATE, EITHER ONE LARGE PLANT OR SEVERAL SMALLER "MODULAR" ONES.

THE EXISTING LOCATION AT OSWEGO SEEMS TO BE A LEADING CANDIDATE FOR A NEW REACTOR.

ANIRBAN, SHOULD THE STATE TO THIS ROUTE, AND IF IT DOES, SHOULD WE RAISE OUR HANDS TO LOCATE IT IN CENTRAL OR NORTHERN NEW YORK?

>> YES, THERE IS A BIND TO THIS, RIGHT?

ON ONE END THERE IS AN OPTIMIZATION.

THERE IS A REAL FEAR OF NUCLEAR MELT DOWNS, MASS TIFF DEVESTATION, ESPECIALLY PEOPLE WHO LIVE DOWNSTREAM BUT AT THE SAME TIME WE ALSO WANT TO GENERATE MORE CLEANER ENERGY, I SUPPOSE, LESS EMISSIONS.

ALTHOUGH I DON'T SEE NUCLEAR POWER AS CLEANER BECAUSE YOU HAVE THE WASTE.

IT'S NOT RENEWABLE, EITHER.

>> BUT IN TERMS OF CARBON EMISSIONS IS WHAT THEY'RE TALKING ABOUT.

>> CARBON EMISSIONS, YES.

NOW I WOULD REQUEST MY READERS TO GO-- OUR VIEWERS TO GO AND LOOK AT THIS BOOK CALLED "SAFE ENOUGH? "

A HISTORY OF NUCLEAR POWER AND ACCIDENT RISK BY THOMAS WELLLOCK.

A WONDERFUL ARTICLE WRITTEN ON THE BOOK BY DANIEL FORD, FROM THE NEW YORKER, A COUPLE OF-- A YEAR AGO.

THEY ARE VERY CLEAR ABOUT THIS.

THEY SAY THAT DATA REVEALS THAT FEDERAL REGULATORS CONSISTENTLY ASSURED AMERICANS THAT THE RISKS OF A MASSIVE ACCIDENT ARE VANISHINGLY SMALL QUOTE UNQUOTE, EVEN WHEN THEY KNEW THAT THEY HAVE INSUFFICIENT EVIDENCE TO PROVE IT.

SO IT'S NOT LIKE THEY DON'T-- IT'S NOT LIKE THEY ARE UNABLE TO CALCULATE THE RISK.

BUT THEY DON'T EVEN KNOW HOW TO CALCULATE THAT RISK.

IT'S ALWAYS GUESS WORK.

SO AS A RESULT, MANY PEOPLE CONCLUDE THAT, YOU KNOW, THERE ARE SAFETY ISSUES THAT ARE SOMETIMES ELIDED AND NOT REALLY PUT OUT TO THE PUBLIC.

>> SO GIVEN THE SAFETY, THE POTENTIAL SAFETY ISSUES, YOU ARE RETICENT ON US DEVELOPING THAT HERE IN UPSTATE?

>> I BELIEVE THERE IS NOT MUCH PUBLIC SUPPORT IN THIS FOR AREAS WHERE SHE WANTS TO PUT IT BUT THERE IS GOOD EVIDENCE THAT YOU CAN PUT IT IN AREAS THAT ARE AWAY FROM HUMAN SETTLEMENTS BUT THAT HAS HUGE COST OVERRUNS.

>> SO BOB SPITZER, THE GOVERNOR IS PUSHING THIS.

SHE BASICALLY SAID WE ARE GOING DO THIS.

SHOULD THE PUBLIC HAVE MORE INPUT INTO A DECISION THIS BIG?

>> WELL, THE PUBLIC HAS INPUT IN A NUMBER OF WAYS.

FIRST THROUGH THE ELECTED LEADERS BUT SECONDLY ONCE GOVERNOR HOCHUL STARTS TO TALK ABOUT PUTTING A PLANT IN, YOU KNOW, ANY GIVEN COUNTY OR REGION OR AREA, THE PEOPLE IN THAT AREA ARE GOING TO BE, YOU KNOW, ARE GOING TO HAVE PLENTY TO SAY ABOUT IT.

BUT PART OF THE BACKDROP AND THE PARADOX OF THIS IS THE FACT THAT WHEN YOU LOOK AT STUDIES ABOUT HOW WE CAN DIVORCE OURSELVES FROM GREENHOUSE GAS GENERATING SOURCES LIKE COAL, OIL AND NATURAL GAS, WE HAVE TO INCLUDE NUCLEAR POWER IN THE MIX BECAUSE YOU CANNOT DO IT JUST BY WIND AND SOLAR AND GEOTHERMAL WHICH THE TRUMP ADMINISTRATION HAS CUT FUNDING AND SUBSIDIES FOR THOSE CLEAN FORMS OF ENERGY GENERATION, WHICH IS A BIG MISTAKE IN THE TRUMP BUDGET BILL.

BUT I THINK WE ARE GOING TO HEAR A LOT MORE ABOUT WHAT THE PUBLIC HAS TO SAY AND WHAT THE ELECTED LEADERS FROM THE AFFECTED AREAS HAVE TO SAY.

A LOT OF THIS WILL DEPEND ON THE QUALITY OF THE TECHNOLOGY, YOU KNOW, ADVOCATES CLAIM THAT IT IS SAFER, THAT SMALLER NUCLEAR POWER PLANTS ARE MORE MANAGEABLE, BUT THE TRADE-OFF HERE IS THAT IF YOU PUT THE PLANT NEAR A POPULATED AREA, OF COURSE, AND THERE IS A PROBLEM, THEN YOU HAVE A MULTIPLICITY OF RISK FACTORS.

IF YOU PUT IT IN A MORE REMOTE AREA, THAT MEANS HAVE YOU TO USE TRANSMISSION LINES TO TRANSMIT THE ENERGY AND YOU LOSE ENERGY THROUGH THE TRANSMISSION LENGTH OR DISTANCE.

IT'S PROBABLY AN AREA WHERE WE ARE GOING TO NEED TO BITE THE BULLET AND PROCEED IN SOME MANNER BUT IT'S GOT TO BE WITH THE GREATEST DEGREE OF CAUTION AND IF THERE IS AN EVER TO DO THIS TOO RAPIDLY, THIS IS A FORMULA FOR SERIOUS PROBLEMS.

>> SARAH, DO YOU AGREE WITH BOB?

WHY NOT JUST PUSH HARD ON RENEWABLES?

THEY CAN BE BUILT FASTER AND CHEAPER?

>> I MEAN I USED TO WORK FOR GREENPEACE WAY BACK WHEN AND GREENPEACE WAS VERY ANTINUCLEAR AT THAT TIME.

I WAS AS WELL.

THEY STILL ARE.

I'M NOT.

I'VE COME TO REALIZE WE ARE IN A CLIMATE CRISIS.

WE CAN DO A LOT OF IT WITH RENEWABLES BUT WE NEED CLEAN BASE LOAD ENERGY SOURCES, TOO.

AT LEAST AS A TRANSITION, RIGHT?

AND SO THERE IS A LOT OF ADVANTAGES TO NUCLEAR, RIGHT?

THEY CAN RUN WHEN THE WIND DOESN'T BLOW, THE SUN DOESN'T SHINE.

THEY CAN DEPLOY IN MULTIPLE GEOGRAPHICAL AREAS.

THAT'S NOT TRUE OF ALL RENEWABLE AREAS.

THEY DON'T TAKE UP A LOT OF SPACE.

THAT'S ANOTHER BIG BENEFIT SO IN DENSE AREAS YOU CAN BUILD, SOME OF THE SMALLER SITES.

ALL ENERGY SOURCES HAVE TRADE-OFFS.

I WOULD RATHER LIVE NEXT TO A NUCLEAR POWER PLANT THAN A COAL FIRED POWER PLANT OR OIL REFINERY, RIGHT?

I MEAN FOR ALL THE NUCLEAR PROBLEMS, YOU KNOW, THE THREE MILE ISLAND DIDN'T REALLY ACTUALLY KILL ANYONE, RIGHT?

THEY'RE MUCH SAFER THAN THEY USED TO BE, TO ANIRBAN'S POINT AND THE NUCLEAR REGULATORY COMMISSION, WE HAVE SOME OF THE MOST STRICT SAFETY STANDARDS FOR POWER PLANTS IN THE WORLD.

I SUPPORT IT.

I HAVE SURPRISED MYSELF THAT I HAVE CHANGED MY OPINION BUT I THINK THE CLIMATE CRISIS PUTS IT INTO A NEW LIGHT.

>> I THINK YOUR CHANGE THERE, YOUR EVOLUTION, SHALL WE SAY, YOU ARE NOT ALONE THEN.

ONE OF THE BIG-- IS IT THE SIERRA CLUB MAYBE?

ONE OF THE BIG ENVIRONMENTAL ORGANIZATIONS HAS NOW COME OUT IN FAVOR OF NUCLEAR.

>> THAT'S A GOOD-- I DON'T KNOW EXACTLY.

THAT WOULD BE INTERESTING TO FIND OUT BUT I THINK YOU ARE RIGHT THAT SOME ENVIRONMENTAL GROUPS ARE CHANGING THEIR TUNE BUT I THINK IT'S A BIT OF A GENERATIONAL ISSUE.

SOME OF THE YOUNGER CLIMATE ACTIVISTS ARE MORE OPEN TO NUCLEAR POWER AND SOME ARE CRITICAL OF GREENPEACE NO FOR NOT UPDATING ITS BELIEFS.

>> IF THE PLANT WERE TO GO TO OSWEGO, THAT WOULD HELP OUT, AGAIN GOING BACK TO THE MICRON DISCUSSION DEVELOPMENT WE HAD OR MENTIONED EARLIER.

WE HAVE TO GO TO AS AND FS.

SARAH YOUR F. >> TO MISSOURI GOVERNOR MIKE KEHOE WHO GUTTED THE STATE'S MINIMUM WAGE AND PAID SICK LEAVE LAW WHICH 58% OF THE VOTERS HAD VOTED FOR.

REFERENDUMS WHICH ASK CITIZENS TO WEIGH IN ON SPECIFIC POLICY ISSUES HAVE CRITICS BUT THERE IS NO DENYING THAT RAISING THE MINIMUM WAGE AND MANDATING PAID SICK LEAVE ARE POPULAR IN BOTH RED AND BLUE STATES.

THAT HASN'T STOPPED REPUBLICAN LEGISLATORS AND GOVERNORS FROM DOING THEIR BEST TO OVERTURN THE WILL OF THE PEOPLE AND HURT THE WORKING POOR AND MIDDLE CLASS.

MANY OF WHOM VOTED THEM INTO OFFICE.

>> ANIRBAN.

>> MY F GOES TO A.I.

GENERATED BAND CALLED VELVET SUNDOWN.

AND IT'S ATROCIOUS MUSIC.

RECENTLY THEIR BAND SPOKESPERSON SAID IT IS COMPLETELY A.I.

GENERATED ART HOAX.

ONE HAS TO LISTEN TO THE SONG "DUST AND SILENCE" TO REALIZE FINALLY YOUR MUSICAL SENSES HAVE BEEN CRUSHED TO DUST AND ALL YOU CRAVE NOW IS SILENCE.

THANKS FOR RUINING THE MOST JOYOUS THINGS ABOUT HUMANITY, MAKING MUSIC.

>> BOB SPITZER.

>> I'M GIVING AN F TO 40% OF THE DEPARTMENT OF EDUCATION'S PERSONNEL.

THE PROBLEM IS THAT THE COURT HASN'T RULED ON THE MERITS OF THE CHALLENGE OF THIS MASS FIRING.

DOES THE PRESIDENT HAVE THIS POWER OR NOT?

WELL, WE DON'T KNOW BECAUSE THE COURT HASN'T SAID.

BUT THE EMPLOYEES ARE NOW BEING FIRED.

THIS IS UTTERLY IRREASON.

>> OKAY, BOB, THANK YOU.

AND NOW WE NEED TO GO TO THE AS AND SARAH, YOUR A.

>> THIS WEEK THE STATE OF MICHIGAN ANNOUNCED IT FINALLY REPLACED FLINT'S WATER PIPES.

OVER A DECADE AGO A COST CUTTING MEASURE BY THE CITY RESULTED IN CONTAMINATION OF THE DRINKING WATER EXPOSING MANY IN THE MAJORITY BLACK CITY TO TOXIC LEVELS OF LEAD.

A LOT OF THE CREDIT IS THE PEOPLE WHO PUSHED BACK AGAINST A GOVERNMENT WHO WAS INDIFFERENT FOR THEIR INITIAL DEMANDS FOR HELP.

>> MY A GOES TO THE FEDERAL JUDGE RECENT RESTRAINING ORDER PROHIBITING ICE FROM STOPPING PEOPLE WITHOUT REASONABLE SUSPICION, SAYING THAT THEY'RE VIOLATING THE FOURTH AMENDMENTS OF PEOPLE.

>> BOB SPITZER.

>> I'M GIVING AN A TO THE NATIONAL PARKS PASSPORT PROGRAM.

IT WAS ESTABLISHED IN 1986 AS A WAY TO BOOST THE SYSTEM'S 433 PARKS AND OTHER SITES.

IT SUCCEEDED IN RAISING THE VISIBILTY, ESPECIALLY THE LESSER KNOWN PARKS.

LET'S JUST HOPE THAT THERE CONTINUES TO BE A VIABLE NATIONAL PARK SYSTEM IN THE YEARS TO COME.

THANK YOU FOR JOINING US THIS EVENING.

FOR COMMENTS YOU CAN WRITE TO THE ADDRESS ON YOUR SCREEN.

IF YOU WOULD LIKE TO VIEW THE SHOW AGAIN YOU CAN VIEW IT ONLINE AT WCNY.ORG.

I'M DAVID CHANATRY, FOR ALL OF US AT IVORY TOWER, HAVE A GOOD NIGHT.