>> COMING UP NEXT ON "IVORY TOWER".... PRESIDENT TRUMP SAYS HE IS THE LEAST RACIST PRESIDENT.

IS HE?

AND, IS IT OKAY TO ADVISE SOLDIERS TO DISOBEY UNLAWFUL ORDERS?

WHAT ABOUT SCHOOLS PAYING STUDENTS CASH TO SHOW UP FOR CLASS?

STAY TUNED.

WE'LL BE RIGHT BACK WITH ANSWERS FROM THE PROFESSORS.

>> THIS PROGRAM IS BROUGHT TO YOU BY THE MEMBERS OF WCNY.

THANK YOU.

♪ ♪ ♪ ♪ >> GOOD EVENING AND WELCOME TO "IVORY TOWER."

THANK YOU FOR JOINING US.

I'M NINA MOORE OF COLGATE UNIVERSITY.

MY COLLEAGUES AROUND THE TABLE TONIGHT ARE .

.

.

BEN BAUGHMAN OF GANNON UNIVERSITY TY SIDULE OF HAMILTON COLLEGE AND SARAH PRALLE OF SYRACUSE UNIVERSITY BLACK HISTORY MONTH IS A TIME TO HONOR THE HEROES OF RACIAL EVER SEEN OUT OF THIS WHITE HOUSE.

WHILE PRESIDENT TRUMP REFUSED TO APOLOGIZE, HE DESCRIBED HIMSELF AS "THE LEAST RACIST PRESIDENT" SO WE DECIDED TONIGHT, WE WANNA DIVE INTO THE QUESTION HEAD-ON.

BEN IS PRESIDENT TRUMP THE LEAST RACIST PRESIDENT?

>> WELL, I'M NOT A HISTORIAN, SOME THINGS ARE CONCERNING, OBVIOUSLY.

THE POST WAS VERY CONCERNING.

OF BOTH OBAMAS DEPICTED AS APES IN THE JUNGLE.

IT'S HORRIFIC.

IT'S OUR COMMANDER IN CHIEF.

HE IS OUR LEADER.

THOSE THINGS SHOULD ACCOUNT HAPPEN.

>> OKAY, SO IS THAT ABOUT WORDS?

IS THAT ABOUT SYMBOL SIMPLE BECAUSE PRESIDENT TRUMP SAYS LOOK AT HIS POLICIES.

AND LOOK SPECIFICALLY AT THE FACT THAT BLACK UNEMPLOYMENT WAS LOW DURING HIS FIRST TERM.

THAT HE IS GIVING ALL THIS MONEY TO HISTORICALLY BLACK COLLEGES AND UNIVERSITIES.

WHAT ABOUT THAT.

I UNDERSTAND YOUR POINT THAT IT WAS BAD BUT IS IT IMPACTFUL?

>> YES, WORDS DO MATTER AS DO ACTIONS.

I FOCUS ON THE ACTIONS.

AND YOU KNOW, THE PROBLEM WITH THIS KIND OF QUESTION IS PEOPLE ALREADY HAVE AN OPINION AND THEY SEEK OUT THINGS THAT WILL CONFIRM THAT.

WHEN YOU MAKE IT SIMPLE BY POSTING SOMETHING LIKE THAT, IT MAKES IT MORE DIFFICULT TO SUPPORT HIS ACTIONS.

THERE ARE ACTION TO SUPPORT HIS ADMINISTRATION BUT THERE ARE ACTIONS PEOPLE CAN SEEK OUT WITHOUT A WHOLE LOT OF WORK THAT COULD SUPPORT THEIR OPINION THAT HE IS A RACIST.

SO THOSE ARE CONCERNING THINGS WHEN THAT'S YOUR LEADER AND THE PEOPLE THAT FOLLOW HIM WILL ALSO HAVE BIASES AND STEREOTYPES AND ALL THE THINGS THAT WE HAVE SCHEMAS AS HUMAN BEINGS THAT FACILITATE THOSE THINGS TO BE OUT IN THE PUBLIC A BIT MORE.

>> TY, BEN IS SAYING THAT FOLKS LOOK TO CONFIRM WHAT THEY ALREADY BELIEVE.

BUT IS THERE ANY CONCRETE EVIDENCE THAT RESOLVES THIS ONE WAY OR THE OTHER OR IS IT AS BEN SAID THAT IT'S UP TO THE PERSON WHO IS INTERPRETING?

>> I THINK WHAT THE IMAGE SHOWED WAS NOT NOT UP FOR INTERPRETATION.

EVERYTHING HAS A HISTORY SAYS THIS HISTORIAN.

TO UNDERSTAND THAT, WE HAVE TO UNDERSTAND THE HISTORY OF THE IMAGE.

IT WAS USED DURING TIMES OF SLAVERY TO SAY WHY SLAVERY WAS A GOOD THING.

THAT SLAVERY WAS A CIVILIZING FORCE FOR AFRICANS DURING THAT TIME.

A HORRIBLE THING THAT AND USING THAT IMAGERY WITH APES DID THAT.

AFTER THE WAR, THERE WAS THIS VIEW THAT, AGAIN, JIM CROW LAWS AND MISCEGENATION WHICH WAS THE IDEA OF INTERMARRIAGE WAS ALSO ILLEGAL AND TERRIBLE AND THEY USED THIS IMAGERY TO SHOW THAT BLACK PEOPLE ARE NOT EQUAL AND IT'S ALL ABOUT POWER.

USING THAT AS A SYMBOL IS ANOTHER SIGN THAT THERE SHOULD NOT BE EQUALITY.

WE SHOULD LOOK AT THE POLICIES.

BUT WHEN WE HAVE SOMETHING AS BLATANT AS THIS, WE SHOULD LOOK AT THAT, TOO.

>> SO TO THE HISTORIAN, I'LL ASK THAT I FOUND IT ODD THAT HE SAID HE WAS THE LEAST RACIST PRESIDENT, AND HIS DEFENSE WAS, WELL LOOK AT WHAT CLINTON AND BIDEN DID WITH RESPECT TO 91994 CRIME BILL AND OTHER COMMENTS THAT HE POINTED TO.

HOW DO YOU COMPARE HIM?

HOW DOES HIS DEGREE OF RACISM STACK UP AGAINST OTHERS?

>> WELL, I THINK TO SAY HE IS THE LEAST RACIST PRESIDENT WOULD BE A STRETCH.

WE CAN SAY THERE ARE SOME POLICIES THAT WERE POSITIVE AND THERE ARE OTHER POLICIES GOING BACK THROUGH AMERICAN HISTORY THAT HAVE HAD RACIAL EFFECTS.

NO DOUBT ABOUT IT.

BUT HIS HISTORY, WHETHER IT'S THE CENTRAL PARK FIVE, WHETHER IT'S OTHER ASPECTS OF HIS LIFE, HAS SHOWN A DEGREE OF, I THINK, RACISM, THAT IS NOT BEEN PRESENT IN SOME MODERN PRESIDENTS.

BUT, LISTEN, IF WE GO BACK IN AMERICAN HISTORY, THERE IS A LONG TRADITION OF RACISM WITHIN MRN PRESIDENTS GOING BACK INTO THE EARLY PARTS OF THE 20th CENTURY BUT I STILL SAY THE IDEA THAT HE IS THE LEAST RACIST PRESIDENT IS BALONEY.

>> WHAT ARE YOU TRYING TO SAY?

>> IT'S A FAMILY SHOW.

>> SO, TO TY'S POINT, THIS SEEMS LIKE IT'S A PERSONAL THING OF TRUMP, AND LOOKING AT HIS HISTORY ON THIS.

YOUR THOUGHTS ABOUT THAT?

>> YEAH, I MEAN I THINK WE HAVE A LOT OF EVIDENCE AND DATA POINTS AND AT SOME POINT YOU JUST GOT TO BELIEVE THE EVIDENCE AND DATA THAT, YES, HE IS A RACIST AND HE SEEMS TO EVEN SUBSCRIBE TO GENETIC THEORIES OF RACE, THAT, YOU KNOW, SOME ETHNIC GROUPS ARE BORN WITH "BETTER GENES" AND THAT'S A REALLY TERRIFYING KIND OF WORLD VIEW.

BUT I WOULD TAKE ISSUE THAT HIS ACTIONS HAVE HELPED MINORITY GROUPS.

I REALLY DON'T THINK HE HAS A GREAT TRACK RECORD AROUND THAT.

IF YOU LOOK AT HIS CUTS TO SOCIAL SAFETY NETS, BLACK UNEMPLOYMENT RATE IS GOING UP RIGHT NOW.

IT WENT DOWN A LITTLE BIT.

THE TERROR POLICIES ARE HURTING MINORITY GROUPS AND LOW INCOME GROUPS.

HE HAS CUT ENVIRONMENTAL JUSTICE OFFICES.

HE HAS CUT DEI, HE HAS PUT PRESSURE ON UNIVERSITIES TO GET RID OF THEIR DEI.

I DON'T SEE HIS POLICIES AS BEING SUPER HELPFUL.

AND THEN THERE IS THE QUESTION OF WORLD VIEW, WHICH I THINK IS REALLY ALSO IMPORTANT HERE.

SO IT'S WORDS, ACTIONS AND WORLD VIEWS.

AND THE WORLD VIEW OF, I THINK HIM, BUT ALSO HIS ADMINISTRATION, ESPECIALLY STEVEN MILLER, RIGHT, IS THIS WORLD VIEW OF WHITE NATIONALISM, I THINK WE HAVE TO CALL IT FOR WHAT IT IS.

SO THERE IS DIFFERENT-- THERE HAS ALWAYS BEEN A BATTLE IN AMERICA BETWEEN THINKING ABOUT AMERICANS AND AMERICA AS A KIND OF CREEDAL NATION WHERE ANYONE CAN BECOME AN AMERICAN IF YOU BELIEVE IN LIBERTY, EQUALITY AND FREEDOM.

AND THEN THERE IS THE ALTERNATIVE VIEW WE BATTLE THROUGH OUT OUR HISTORY AS TY SUGGESTED, WHICH REJECTS THAT KIND OF ASPIRATIONAL VIEW OF AMERICA AND SUGGESTS THAT WE ARE AN ETHNO-NATIONAL STATE AND THAT WHITE CHRISTIANS BASICALLY SHOULD BE AT THE HIERARCHY AT THE TOP OF THE HIERARCHY OF, A RACIAL HIERARCHY.

THAT'S WHAT WE ARE SEEING RIGHT NOW AND I THINK THAT'S THE MOST DISTURBING PART OF THIS.

>> ARGUABLY AS YOU POINT OUT, THERE IS PERHAPS MORE EVIDENCE IN THAT SPHERE WHEN IT COMES TO IMMIGRATION.

HE HAS BEEN VERY EXPLICIT, CONSISTENTLY ABOUT THE IDEA THAT IMMIGRANTS ARE CRIMINALS.

AND YET, YET, HALF OF LATINO MEN VOTED FOR HIM IN THE LAST ELECTION.

HIS SUPPORT AMONG ALL BLACK VOTERS DOUBLED BETWEEN HIS LAST RUN AND THIS RUN FROM 8% TO JUST UNDER 16%.

HOW DO YOU EXPLAIN THAT?

IF ALL OF WHAT WE ARE SAYING IS CORRECT, WHY ARE MORE BLACK PEOPLE, WHY ARE SO MANY LATINOS VOTING FOR TRUMP?

>> THERE ARE DIFFERENT THEORIES.

POLITICAL SCIENTISTS HAVE BEEN TRYING TO STUDY THIS, RIGHT?

THEY LINK IT PARTLY TO ECONOMICS AND CONCERNS ABOUT ECONOMICS.

BUT YOU KNOW, I THINK THE KEY PART HERE IS IT DOESN'T SEEM LIKE IT'S LASTING.

SO YOU KNOW, FOR SOME PEOPLE THOUGHT DOES THIS LIKE SUGGEST A REALIGNMENT, YOU KNOW?

AMERICAN POLITICS?

AND IT LOOKS LIKE, ESPECIALLY LATINO SUPPORT FOR TRUMP HAS DROPPED OFF PRECIPITOUSLY.

AND I THINK THE BLACK VOTE IS PROBABLY GOING TO AS WELL.

>> HIS DISAPPROVAL RATINGS AMONG BLACKS IS NOW AT 70%.

SO TY, LET ME ASK A HARD QUESTION.

IS IT POSSIBLE THAT LIBERALS HAVE WASTED SO MUCH OF THE RACE CARD ON THINGS THAT ARE NOT AS CONSEQUENTIAL AS ACTUAL POLICY, THE KINDS OF THINGS THAT SARAH JUST TALKED ABOUT BECAUSE WE HEARD THIS TERM IS USED MORE OFTEN NOW THAN AT ANY TIME THAT I CAN THINK OF IN RECENT YEARS, AND OFTEN FOR THINGS LIKE, YOU KNOW, VERBAL SLIPUPS, MISPRONOUNCING THE FORMER PRESIDENT'S NAME AND THE LIKE.

YOUR THOUGHTS ABOUT THAT.

IS THE RACE CARD OVERUSED TO THE POINT THAT WHEN IT APPLIES TO TRUMP, NO ONE IS REALLY LISTENING?

>> I DON'T KNOW IF I ASK ANSWER THAT.

I CAN ANSWER FOR MYSELF ANYWAY.

AS SOMEBODY WHO STUDIES THE HISTORY OF COMMEMORATION AND THE HISTORY OF SIM BOMBS-- SYMBOLS AND I HAVE SPENT THE LAST 20 YEARS TRYING TO RID AMERICA, PARTICULARLY IN THE MILITARY, AND FEDERAL GOVERNMENT OF CONFEDERATE COMMEMORATION BECAUSE THEY HAVE A HISTORY.

AND THEY WERE CREATED AT A TIME TO CELEBRATE WHITE SUPREMACY.

SO I DO THINK SYMBOLS ARE IMPORTANT.

AND SYMBOLS ARE A WAY THAT WE CAN LOOK AT OUR VALUES AND WHAT INSPIRES US BUT IT'S NOT THE ONLY THING.

POLICIES MATTER AS WELL.

BUT I THINK IF WE DON'T UNDERSTAND THE HISTORY OF WHY THESE SYMBOLS ARE IMPORTANT OR WHY THESE MEMES ARE IMPORTANT, WE ARE GOING TO GET THE POLICY WRONG, TOO?

>> AND I THINK WHAT TY IS PLAYING TO, THE SYMBOL IS HUGE.

THAT'S A BIG PART, BUT THE DEHUMANIZATION OF ANY PERSON OR PEOPLE IS ANOTHER PART.

SO THOSE TWO THINGS COMBINED, I THINK REALLY IS A RECIPE FOR DISASTER.

>> OKAY, NEXT.

THEIR VIDEO IS SEDITIOUS BEHAVIOR PUNISHABLE BY DEATH ACCORDING TO THE WHITE HOUSE, BUT THE SIX LAWMAKERS WHO PRODUCED THE VIDEO INSIST IT IS CONSTITUTIONALLY PROTECTED SPEECH.

IT ADVISES MILITARY PERSONNEL TO REFUSE UNLAWFUL ORDERS.

AND WHILE THE CATHOLIC ARCHBISHOP FOR THE U.S.

MILITARY AGREES WITH THE MORAL THRUST OF THEIR ACTIONS, THE JUSTICE DEPARTMENT FILED CRIMINAL CHARGES AGAINST THESE LAWMAKERS.

A GRAND JURY DECLINED TO INDICT.

A JUDGE BLOCKED THE PENTAGON FROM REDUCING SENATOR KELLY'S RANK IN PAY AND THE SENATOR IS SUING.

IN SHORT, THIS IS FAR FROM OVER.

SO, TY, HOW DO YOU EXPECT THIS TO END OR HOW SHOULD IT END?

>> I THINK WE'LL START WITH THE VIDEO.

SO THE VIDEO WAS DONE BY THE SIX SENATORS AND SAID THAT YOU DIDN'T HAVE TO OBEY AN UNLAWFUL ORDER, WHICH IS TRUE, BUT I DIDN'T LIKE THE VIDEO.

I DON'T THINK WE SHOULD SENATORS AND CONGRESSMEN TALKING TO YOUNG SOLDIERS, SAILORS AND MARINES TELLING THEM WHAT THEY SHOULD DO.

THAT'S A VERY DIFFICULT THING UNLESS GRISTLES A DIRECT ORDER TO SHOOT SOMEONE IN THE KNEES, IT'S DIFFICULT TO KNOW WHAT IS LAWFUL OR UNLAWFUL ORDER.

HAVING SAID THAT, THAT TRUMP WENT AFTER THESE SIX IS DESPICABLE AND AGAINST THEIR FIRST AMENDMENT RIGHT AND MORE THAN JUST GOING AFTER THEM.

IT'S GOING AFTER PEOPLE LIKE ME, RETIRED MILITARY OFFICERS WHO HAVE EXPERTISE AND EXPERIENCE AND WANT TO TALK IN THE PUBLIC SPHERE AND HE IS TRYING TO MAKE IT SO THEY CAN'T DO THAT.

THEY COULD BRING THEM BACK ON ACTIVE DUTY AND CHARGE THEM.

THAT IS SO FAR NOT HAPPENED.

BUT THAT'S WITHIN THE UNIFORM CODE OF MILITARY JUSTICE.

WE HAVE A LONG WAY TO GO ABOUT THIS.

BUT I THINK WE SHOULD ALLING HORRIFIED THAT HE IS USING LAWFARE AGAINST RETIRED MILITARY OFFICERS TO TRY TO SHUT THEM UP.

>> SO LET ME ASK YOU ABOUT THAT.

WHY DO YOU THINK IT'S HAPPENING?

WHY GO AFTER THESE MILITARY PERSONNEL, THESE LAWMAKERS IF IT'S NOT BECAUSE OF THE IDEA THAT THE PRESIDENT HAS THE RIGHT TO SAY WHAT IS LAWFUL AND WHAT IS NOT?

>> I THINK WE FOUND WITH THIS PRESIDENT, HE IS GOING TO EXPLOIT EVERY LAW-- EVERYTHING HE CAN TO TRY TO SHUT HIS CRITICS UP AND TO TRY TO USE WHATEVER POWER HE HAS TO GET ACCOMPLISHED WHAT HE WANTS TO AND HE IS FINDING WAYS-- WE HAVE EXPECTED NORMS TO HOLD THE CASE.

BUT EVERY RETIRED MILITARY OFFICER CAN BE RECALLED TO ACTIVE DUTY AT ANY TIME IF THEY HAVE A PENSION.

SO THEY CAN DO THIS.

BUT SHOULD THEY DO IT?

SHOULD THEIR CHANGE OF LAW?

NO, BUT HE IS TRYING TO DO THAT AND SHUT CRITICS UP AND I KNOW PEOPLE IT HAS WORKED WITH.

IT IS A VERY EXPENSIVE THING TO PAY FOR LAWYERS IF YOU ARE GOING TO BE SUED OR BROUGHT TO COURT ON THIS.

AND SO IT'S A SCARY THING FOR MANY RETIRED MILITARY WHO MAY WANT TO TALK ABOUT THEIR EXPERIENCE IN A PUBLIC SPHERE BECAUSE HE IS GOING TO GO AFTER THEM.

>> SARAH, DOES THE FACT THAT THESE ARE CONGRESSIONAL LAWMAKERS GIVE THEM A LITTLE BIT MORE LEEWAY, A BIT MORE BOLDNESS TO DO WHAT TY SAID OTHERS ARE SORT OF RELUCTANT TO DO?

>> WELL, I THINK IN THE SENSE THAT WHAT TY SAID IS THAT THEY HAVE THE RESOURCES TO FIGHT THESE CASES, AND SO A LOT OF PEOPLE DON'T.

AND SO THEIR SPEECH MAY NOT BE AS CHILLED AS MUCH.

HIS INTENTION OF DOING THIS AND GOING AFTER THESE PEOPLE IS TO CHILL OTHER PEOPLE FROM SPEAKING, RIGHT?

SO IN THAT CASE, THESE SIX PEOPLE ARE CHALLENGING IT AND THAT'S ALWAYS A GOOD SIGN, BUT THE MESSAGE IS MUCH BROADER, LIKE BE WEARY OF WHAT YOU SAY, RIGHT?

AND THAT HAS BEEN HIS M.O.

THE ENTIRE TIME.

YOU CAN SEE THAT, YOU KNOW, IT'S BASICALLY LIKE FREE SPEECH FOR MY FRIENDS, CENSORSHIP FOR MY ENEMIES AND, YOU KNOW, I THINK WHAT IS INTERESTING ABOUT THIS CASE, TOO, IS THE GRAND JURY REFUSED TO INDICT THESE SIX LEGISLATORS.

AND THAT IS INCREDIBLY RARE IN OUR SYSTEM.

YOU KNOW, GRAND JURIES HAVE A 95 TO 99% INDICTMENT RATE.

AND SO HE HAS LOST IN SEVERAL OTHER CASES AS WELL, NOT GOTTEN INDICTMENTS, RIGHT?

THAT SUGGESTS TO ME THAT THESE ARE CLEARLY JUST RETRIBUTION BUT HAVE NO LEGAL BASIS UNDER THEM.

>> YEAH, SO SETTING ASIDE WHAT WE JUST HEARD FOR THE MOMENT, DOES THE PRESIDENT HAVE A LEG TO STAND ON, BEN, IN ARGUING THAT HE IS THE COMMANDER IN CHIEF AND IT'S HIS CONSTITUTIONAL AUTHORITY TO DECIDE WHAT IS AND ISN'T LAWFUL?

DO YOU THINK THIS MIGHT BE DIFFERENT FROM SOME OF THE OTHER CASES?

>> YES.

I DO THINK-- OBVIOUSLY HE IS THE COMMANDER IN CHIEF.

AND I DO THINK THAT THERE ARE LEGITIMATE CONCERNS THAT THE ADMINISTRATION BRINGS FORWARD.

LIKE THE CHAIN OF COMMAND.

AND WHEN YOU ARE OUTSIDE OF THE UNITED STATES AND FOLLOWING OTHER RULES OF LAW AND INTERNATIONAL RULES OF LAW, THOSE ARE A BIT MORE COMPLICATED THAN WHAT WE ARE USED TO EVEN IF WE STUDIED CRIMINAL JUSTICE HERE.

SO WHAT IT DOES IS THIS BROAD TERM OF UNLAWFUL ORDERS.

ON THE SURFACE IT'S LIKE OH CRAP, RIGHT?

YOU SHOULD NOT DO ANYTHING THAT IS UNLAWFUL.

BUT IT DOES UNDERMINE THE CHAIN OF COMMAND WHERE, IF AN ORDER IS GIVEN, IS THERE TIME TO QUESTION IT AND WHAT DOES THAT THEN-- WHAT KIND OF SITUATIONS DO THOSE CREATE.

>> ON THE GROUND FOR RANK AND FILE, TY, WHAT ARE YOUR THOUGHTS ABOUT THAT, FOR EXAMPLE, IN LIFE AND DEATH SITUATIONS?

DO WE WANT SOLDIERS WONDERING IF THEY SHOULD REACT AND OBEY ORDERS.

>> ALMOST ALWAYS THEY HAVE TO OBEY THE ORDERS OF THE OFFICERS ABOVE THEM EXCEPT IN THE MOST OUTRAGEOUS CASES.

THAT'S TRUE.

WE HAVE TO MAKE SURE THEY DO THAT.

BUT WHAT TRUMP AND HEGSETH IS DOING IS MAKING IT MORE DIFFICULT BY FIRING THE LAWYERS THAT ARE THERE.

SO WHEN I WAS ON ACTIVE DUTY, WE HAD A LAWYER THAT WAS AT OUR ELBOW EVERY STEP OF THE WAY TO MAKE SURE WE UNDERSTOOD WHAT WAS LAWFUL BOTH HERE AND ABROAD.

THE LAWS OF WAR AND OUR OWN LAWS.

BUT IF YOU GET RID OF THE LAWYERS OR GET RID OF THE BEST LAWYERS, YOU ARE ALWAYS GOING TO WORRY ABOUT THIS.

HE HAS MADE IT MUCH MORE DIFFICULT TO FIND THE RIGHT ANSWER BECAUSE OF WHO HE FIRED.

HE HAS FIRED WOMEN AND BLACK GENERALS WHO HAVE BEEN IN SENIOR POSITIONS.

SO HE HAS GONE AFTER THE MILITARY IN A BUNCH OF DIFFERENT WAYS TO MAKE IT, I THINK, A WEAKER INSTITUTION.

>> OKAY.

MOVING FORWARD.

ACROSS THE COUNTRY AND HERE IN UPSTATE, SCHOOL ADMINISTRATORS AND TEACHERS HAVE WORKED HARD TO FIND A SOLUTION TO THE PROBLEM OF CHRONIC ABSENTEEISM .

.

.

WHEN STUDENTS DON'T SHOW UP FOR SCHOOL, THAT AFFECTS ACADEMIC SUCCESS, SOCIAL AND EMOTIONAL WELL-BEING, AND, POTENTIALLY, DROPOUT RATES TOO.

THE SOLUTION THAT SOME SCHOOL DISTRICTS ARE TURNING TO GOOD 'OLE FASHION CASH.

WITH THE BLESSING OF THE NEW YORK STATE EDUCATION DEPARTMENT BUFFALO PUBLIC SCHOOLS ARE SPONSORING A MONTHLY LOTTERY DRAWING IN WHICH STUDENTS CAN WIN FROM $200 TO $500.

BUFFALO IS NOT ALONE .

.

.

DETROIT CITY SCHOOLS OFFER UP TO $1,000 IN YEAR-END CASH PAYMENTS FOR PERFECT ATTENDANCE.

A SOUTH CAROLINA DISTRICT $25 A WEEK.

SARAH, WHAT DO YOU THINK OF THIS APPROACH?

>> WELL, I GUESS I WOULD START BY SAYING I FEEL FOR SCHOOL ADMINISTRATORS WHO ARE TRYING TO SOLVE A VERY IMPORTANT PROBLEM.

I MEAN CHRONIC ABSENTEEISM, LIKE YOU SAID, HAS ACTUAL NEGATIVE OUTCOMES.

BUT THEY'RE TRYING TO SOLVE PROBLEMS WHOSE ROOTS ARE OUTSIDE OR EXTERNAL TO THE SCHOOLS THEMSELVES, ROOTED IN ECONOMIC INEQUALITY, SOCIAL INEQUALITYIES POVERTY, HOUSING INSECURITY, LACK OF TRANSPORTATION, ILLNESS, YOU KNOW.

NEED TO CARE FOR OTHER FAMILIES-- FAMILY MEMBERS AT HOME.

A PIZZA BATTERY IS NOT GOING TO GET YOU A RIDE TO SCHOOL, YOU KNOW, SO I'M KIND OF A POLICY PERSON SO I REALLY BELIEVE IN EVIDENCE-BASED POLICY MAKING.

AND I WOULD HAVE TO SAY IN THE RESEARCH THAT I DID FOR THIS, IT SUGGESTS THAT THERE IS REALLY MIXED AND NOT STRONG EVIDENCE THAT THESE KIND OF INCENTIVE PROGRAMS WORK.

THERE IS A LOT OF DIFFERENT TYPES, BUT SOME OF THEM ARE ACTUALLY COUNTERPRODUCTIVE SO LIKE GIVING REWARDS FOR PERFECT ATTENDANCE ARE ACTUALLY REWARDING THE PEOPLE WHO NEED THAT THE LEAST.

AND YOU ARE ACTUALLY MAKING STUDENTS WHO ARE ABSENT FOR REASONS OUTSIDE OF THEIR CONTROL OFTEN FEEL SHAME OR GUILT.

SO I REALLY WORRY ABOUT THESE PROGRAMS.

THEY'RE VERY POPULAR.

BUT THEIR EFFECTIVENESS, I THINK IS REALLY SERIOUSLY IN QUESTION.

>> THAT'S A FASCINATING POINT THAT THEY COULD ACTUALLY BE COUNTERPRODUCTIVE AND HURT THOSE WHO ARE MOST LIKELY TO BE ABSENT.

BEN, YOUR THOUGHTS.

>> THAT'S WHAT THE RESEARCH SUGGESTS, IS THAT IT IS COUNTERPRODUCTIVE BECAUSE WHAT IT IS DOING IS UNDERMINING THE INTRINSIC MOTIVATION OF AN INDIVIDUAL.

WHEN YOU GIVE EXTERNAL MOTIVATION THINGS LIKE MONEY, PEOPLE LIKE MONEY, THEY LIKE STUFF.

AND YOU ARE NOT ADDRESSING THE ROOT PROBLEMS.

YOUR BASIC NEEDS HAVE TO BE MET IN ORDER FOR TO YOU GO TO A HIGHER LEVEL AND ACTUALLY LEARN THINGS.

SO YOU HAVE TO BE ABLE TO NOT BE STARVING.

YOU HAVE TO BE ABLE TO GET TO THE SCHOOL.

THOSE THINGS, IF THERE IS MONEY TO BE HAD, THOSE THINGS SHOULD BE MET FIRST SO THAT THE STUDENTS HAVE THE BEST CHANCE TO GO FORWARD.

AND THE LAST THING I WILL SAY IS IT REALLY DOES IMPACT THAT BOTTOM LINE LONG-TERM.

SO SHORT-TERM, IT HAS SOME THINGS THAT WILL SHOW WHERE PEOPLE ARE LIKE YEAH, I'LL SHOW UP FOR SOME MONEY.

BUT LONG-TERM, IT IMPACTS THEM.

LONGITUDINALLY, WHEN YOU LOOK AT STUDIES, THEIR MET VAGUES TO BE SELF MOTIVATED IS IMPACTED IN A NEGATIVE WAY.

>> YEAH, SO TY, ON THE VERY POINT ABOUT INTRINSIC MOTIVATION, DO YOU SEE SOME PROBLEMS HERE?

I MEAN SHOULD THE GOAL BE TO MAKE STUDENTS WANT TO COME TO SCHOOL BECAUSE OF THE VALUE OF AN EDUCATION OR THE LEARNING PROCESS?

>> THEY CAN'T LEARN IF THEY'RE NOT IN THE CLASSROOM.

SO I THINK THERE IS A GREAT ARTICLE BY NICHOLAS KRISTOF IN THE "NEW YORK TIMES" LAST WEEK THAT TALKS ABOUT THE LOWEST-- THE STATE THAT HAS THE LOWEST RATE OF ABSENTEEISM IS ALABAMA AND MISSISSIPPI IS DOING GREAT WORK AND LOUISIANA AND THEY'RE DOING A WHOLE COMMUNITY APPROACH TO IT AND REVERSING ABSENTEEISM.

WE HAVE THINGS TO LOOK AT IF WE WERE LOOKING AT THAT.

THEY GIVE GRADES TO SCHOOLS AND GRADES TO PRINCIPALS AND TEACHERS AND THEY HOLD PARENTS ACCOUNTABLE.

AND THEY HAVE THE STICK AS WELL AS A CARROT.

THEY REALLY LOOKED AT THIS IN A HOLISTIC WAY AND HAD AMAZING OUTCOMES WITH IT.

MAYBE WE SHOULD LOOK AT OTHER PLACES THAT HAVE HAD SOME SUCCESS.

>> AND I WOULD SAY ONE OF THE INTERVENTIONS THAT IS PRETTY LOW COST AND SEEMS TO BE MUCH MORE EFFECTIVE THAN THESE OTHER INCENTIVE-BASED PROGRAMS IS ESSENTIALLY GIVING INFORMATION TO PARENTS WHOSE CHILDREN ARE ABSENT A LOT ABOUT THE NUMBER OF ABSENCES AND COMPARING THEM TO THE AVERAGE STUDENTS IN THE CLASS.

SO WHEN PEOPLE, A LOT OF TIMES PARENTS THINK THEIR KIDS ARE ACTUALLY NOT AS ABSENT AS THEY ARE.

SOMETIMES THE TUNE OF HALF AS MUCH, RIGHT?

AND WHEN THEY ARE ACTUALLY GIVEN THE DATA, AND COMPARE IT WITH OTHER KIDS, THEY-- THE ABSENTEE RATE GOES DOWN.

>> IT'S ALWAYS SO IMPORTANT TO BRING PARENTS INTO THE EQUATION.

IT'S TIME OR OUR GRADE BOOKS AND WE'LL START WITH BEN.

>> MY F IS GOING FOR A POKE MAN CARD THAT SOLD FOR $16.5 MILLION.

THE MOST A TRADING HARD HAS EVER WENT FOR.

I DIDN'T LOOK INTO FOR HOW MUCH.

IT IS SILLY.

I DON'T KNOW WHAT $16.5 MILLION LOOKS LIKE.

>> THAT HAD TO BE A CHARZARD.

>> MY F IS ABOUT TO THE TRUMP FAMILY, GRAFT AND GRIFT IS THE FAMILY MOTOR MOTTO BUT COPYRIGHTING THE NAME OF TRUMP INTERNATIONAL AIRPORT THAT THE TRUMP FAMILY RECEIVES MONEY IS BOLD AND AWE DARKS EVEN FOR THEM-- AUDACIOUS EVEN FOR THEM.

>> MY F GOES TO THE SAVE ACT THE REPUBLICANS ARE TRYING TO PUSH THROUGH CONGRESS AT THE BEHEST OF TRUMP.

IT REQUIRES CITIZENSHIP TO VOTE AND IF THIS PASSES THE ONLY WAY TO REGISTER TO VOTE IS TO PRODUCE A PASSPORT OR BIRTH CERTIFICATE.

HALF OF AMERICANS DON'T HAVE A PASSPORT AND DON'T KNOW WHERE THEIR BIRTH CERTIFICATE IS.

THIS WOULD BE A HUGE IMPACT ON DISENFRANCHISING MILLIONS OF AMERICANS, MANY OF WHOM MIGHT ACTUALLY VOTE FOR REPUBLICANS.

>> NOW TURNING TO SOME GOOD NEWS WITH OUR AS.

STARTING AGAIN WITH YOU, BEN.

>> MY A IS GOING TO A FORT LABEOUF HIGH SCHOOL STUDENT AND AN ASPIRING FORENSIC PSYCHOLOGIST.

THIS GENUINE ILLUSTRATION OF A THOUGHTFUL AND SERIOUS STUDENT SENT TO A UNIVERSITY SAYING THANKS FOR LETTING ME SCRIFT AND LEARN MORE ABOUT SOMETHING I'M INTERESTED IN.

IS A TESTAMENT TO STUDENT AND TO THE HIGH SCHOOL THAT OBVIOUSLY GAVE THEM AN ENVELOPE TO USE.

>> TY.

>> MY A GOES TO TWO OF THE BRAVEST PEOPLE I KNOW.

FORMER REPRESENTATIVE TOM AND RENZI RICE.

HE WAS THE ONLY SOUTH CAROLINA REPUBLICAN CONGRESSMAN TO VOTE FOR IMPEACHMENT AFTER THE JANUARY 6 ASSAULT.

CENSORED BY HIS FELLOW SOUTH CAROLINA REPUBLICANS HE LOST HIS PRIMARY CONTEST.

FAMILY AND FRIENDS SHUN HIM.

HE HAD HIM AT HAMILTON RECENTLY AND SAW WHAT REAL COURAGE LOOKS LIKE.

>> SARAH?

>> MY A GOES TO DEFENDERS OF FREE SPEECH WITH A SPECIAL CALLOUT TO STEPHEN COLBERT WHO CRITICIZED CBS FOR PREVENTING HIM FOR INTERVIEWING SENATE CANDIDATE JAMES TALARICO OF TEXAS.

THE CBS WAS APPARENTLY SPOOKED BY THE NEW RULE OF THE FCC THAT WOULD GIVE OR REQUIRE EQUAL TIME TO CANDIDATES ON THE LATE NIGHT TELEVISION SHOW.

IN THE 24 HOURS AFTER THE INTERVIEW WAS PULLED, HIS CAMPAIGN RAISED $2.5 MILLION.

>> THANKS EVERYBODY.

BEFORE WE GO, I WANT TO SHARE NOTES FROM A FEW OF OUR VIEWERS.

TOM WROTE TO ASK, IF THE ADMINISTRATION CAN WITH HOLD DUES FROM THE UNITED NATIONS WITHOUT PENALTY DO YOU TO DISAGREEMENT, CAN THE CITIZEN WITH HOLD TAXES FOR THE SAME REASON?

AND MICHAEL SHARED HIS CONCERNS ABOUT MARIJUANA LAWS AND BARBARA COMPLIMENTED HOW WE DEBATE AND DISAGREE HERE AT "IVORY TOWER."

SHE SAID, WITH INTEGRITY AND MUTUAL RESPECT.

THANK YOU ALL FOR CHIMING IN.

WE WOULD LOVE TO HEAR FROM MORE OF YOU.

WRITE TO THE ADDRESS ON YOUR SCREEN.

IF YOU WANT TO WATCH THE SHOW AGAIN OR SHARE IT ON YOUR SOCIAL MEDIA PAGES, GO TO WCNY.ORG.

I'M MEAN THEY MEAN THEY.

FOR-- I'M NINA MOORE.

ALL ALL OF US AT "IVORY TOWER."

GOOD NIGHT.

♪ ♪ ♪ ♪