COMING UP ON IVORY TOWER , GOVERNOR HOCHUL BELIEVES IT'S TIME FOR DEMOCRATS TO GERRYMANDER, IS SHE RIGHT?

ABANDON D.E.I.

OR LOSE FEDERAL FUNDING, WHAT SHOULD COLLEGES DO?

NOW THAT THE CORPORATION FOR PUBLIC BROADCASTING IS SHUTTING DOWN, WHAT ARE THE REPERCUSSIONS?

STAY TUNED FOR ANSWERS FROM THE PROFESSORS NEXT.

♪ ♪ ♪ ♪ >> GOOD EVENING AND WELCOME TO "IVORY TOWER."

THANK YOU FOR JOINING US.

I'M NINA MOORE OF COLGATE UNIVERSITY.

THE PROFESSORS JOINING ME AROUND THE TABLE TONIGHT ARE: RICK FENNER OF UTICA UNIVERSITY ANIRBAN ACHARYA OF LEMOYNE COLLEGE AND JENNIFER STROMER-GALLEY OF SYRACUSE UNIVERSITY "WE ARE AT WAR" SO SAYS GOVERNOR KATHY HOCHUL.

HOCHUL AND A GROWING LIST OF DEMOCRATIC GOVERNORS FROM CALIFORNIA TO KANSAS, TO ILLINOIS AND WISCONSIN, ARE WEIGHING THEIR OPTIONS, AND HOW TO COUNTERACT , THE REDISTRICTING EFFORTS UNDERWAY IN TEXAS.

THAT STATE'S NEW MAP MAY ADD FIVE MORE SEATS TO THE SLIM REPUBLICAN MAJORITY IN CONGRESS.

EVEN FOLKS WHO NORMALLY CRITICIZE PARTISAN GERRYMANDERING, LIKE FORMER ATTORNEY GENERAL ERIC HOLDER SAY THAT DEMOCRATS MUST RESPOND IN KIND, OR, AS GOVERNOR HOCHUL PUT IT, 'YOU HAVE TO FIGHT FIRE WITH FIRE.'.

RICK.

DO YOU AGREE?

IS PARTISAN GERRYMANDERING THE BEST PLAY FOR DEMOCRATS?

>> WELL, I DON'T BELIEVE THAT DEMOCRACY AND GOOD GOVERNANCE IS BEST SERVED BY GERRYMANDERING.

BUT ALLOWING REPUBLICANS TO USE PARTISANSHIP TO DRAW DISTRICTS WHILE DEMOCRATS CONTINUE TO USE INDEPENDENT COMMISSIONS, MAY, IN THE LONG RUN, MAY ACTUALLY BE WORSE.

IT'S UN AT RAIL DISARM AMOUNT, IF YOU WILL.

I UNDERSTAND WHY STATES LIKE CALIFORNIA, NEW YORK AND OTHER BLUE STATES ARE LOOKING TO GO THIS DIRECTION.

MY FIRST CHOICE WOULD BE TO HAVE SOMEONE STOP TEXAS FROM IMPLEMENTING THIS PLAN.

YOU KNOW, THE DEMOCRATIC TEXANS THAT HAVE LEFT THE STATE, I THINK THERE IS A TEMPORARY FIX.

I DON'T BELIEVE THE SUPREME COURT, THE COURTS ARE ONE OPTION, BUT I DON'T THINK SUPREME COURT IS GOING TO STEP IN HERE.

I THINK THAT THERE PERHAPS COULD BE A COALITION OF MINORITY LEGISLATORS.

YOU KNOW, REPUBLICANS IN CALIFORNIA ARE UPSET, AS ARE REPUBLICANS IN NEW YORK.

COULD THEY GET TOGETHER WITH DEMOCRATS FROM TEXAS AND TRY TO PUT PRESSURE ON THEIR POLITICAL PARTIES TO STOP THIS?

I DON'T KNOW.

AND WHAT ABOUT BUSINESSES IN TEXAS?

YOU KNOW, WE SAW IN SOUTH CAROLINA, BUSINESSES WERE ABLE TO STEP IN AND PUT ECONOMIC PRESSURE DURING THE YOU KNOW, SAME SEX BATHROOM DEBACLE.

I'M NOT OPTIMISTIC ABOUT ANY OF THOSE THINGS HAPPENING.

BUT I THINK THOSE ARE FIRST STEPS.

IF THE DEMOCRATS DO GO FORWARD, I SUGGEST GOING THE ROUTE OF CALIFORNIA, WHICH WHICH HAS MADE VERY CLEAR THAT THEY DON'T WANT TO GO THIS ROUTE, BUT IF TEXAS CONTINUES ON THAT THEY FEEL THAT THERE IS NO CHOICE, AND THEY'RE EVEN WILLING TO DO THIS TEMPORARILY SO THEY SAY WE CAN REVISIT THIS.

>> YEAH, BUT WHAT IS THE LIKELIHOOD OF THAT HAPPENING?

AND WHAT IS THE LIKELIHOOD OF TEXAS NOT FOLLOWING THROUGH?

I MEAN I THINK THIS IS A TRAIN THAT HAS ALREADY LEFT THE STATION.

I WANT TO ASK YOU FROM THE TOP YOU SAID THAT IT'S LIKE HOCHUL AND HOLDER SAY THAT DEMOCRATS HAVE TO DO THIS.

BUT DO YOU WORRY ABOUT AN ARMS RACE OF SORT?

WHERE IS THE BOTTOM?

>> I BELIEVE THERE IS A PROBLEM THERE, BUT YOU KNOW, IF THEY DON'T DO ANYTHING, AND REPUBLICAN STATES CONTINUE TO LOCK IN THROUGH, YOU KNOW, CHANGING THE DISTRICTS, THEN ULTIMATELY YOU ARE GOING TO SEE IT IMPOSSIBLE TO SEE REPUBLICANS LOSE ANY OF THESE STATES, WHICH IS WHAT THEY'RE TRYING TO STUDENTS GIVING THE CHATGPT ANSWER THAT OTHER PEOPLE ARE USING A. I AM NOT SO IN THAT RACE FOR GRADES, I'M GOING TO LOSE OUT SO DEMOCRATS CAN CLEARLY, IN THEIR RATIONAL SELF INTEREST TO GERRYMANDER, BUT YOU KNOW, AS A POLITICAL SCIENTIST, IT IS GOOD FOR DEMOCRACY TO HAVE MORE INDEPENDENT REDISTRICTING COMMISSIONS.

SEVEN STATES HAVE, MONTANA, WASHINGTON STATE AND EVEN TEXAS HAS AN HB 5316 WHICH PROPOSED AN INDEPENDENT COMMISSION.

AS LONG AS WE DON'T ALL MOVE TOWARD THAT DIRECTION AND THE STATES HAVE THE RIGHT TO DECIDE IN THE MANNER OF CHOOSING HOW THE ELECTIONS WOULD HAPPEN, THIS WOULD BECOME AN ARMS RACE AND I DON'T SEE DEMOCRATS BACKING DOWN BECAUSE THEY'RE GOING TO LOSE SEATS.

>> AGAIN, I DON'T WANT TO BE THE DEBBIE DOWNER HERE AND SAY BUT THOSE THINGS AREN'T GOING TO WORK BUT I WILL SAY THAT CONSIDER NEW YORK'S REDISTRICTING COMMISSION, IS IT REALLY INDEPENDENT?

>> IT IS NOT INDEPENDENT.

>> BECAUSE THE LEGISLATURE CAN COME BACK-- >> THAT'S RIGHT.

>> SO YOUR THOUGHTS, DOESN'T IT REQUIRE THAT THESE INDEPENDENT COMMISSIONS HAVE MORE POWER THAN THEY, WHICH MEANS LEGISLATORS WOULD HAVE TO GIVE IT UP?

>> RIGHT.

THERE ARE MANY PLACES WHERE THERE ARE PARTISAN BALANCE AND THE LEGISLATORS BLOCKED TO BE PART OF THE INDEPENDENT COMMISSION.

NEW YORK STATE IS NOT LIKE THAT.

IT IS THE EXCEPTION, THAT'S WHY IT'S IN THE NOT SEVEN STATES.

BUT I THINK PERSONALLY THE REDISTRICTING COMMISSION SHOULD BE CITIZEN GROUPS AND A PARTISAN BALANCE.

TWO REPUBLICANS AND TWO DEMOCRATS SO NOBODY HAS AN UPPER HAND AND MAKE FAIRER DISTRICTS WHERE EVERYBODY HAS A CHANCE.

OTHERWISE YOU ARE STUCK IN A DEMOCRACY WHERE A DEMOCRACY FUNCTIONS BY NOT ALLOWING PEOPLE TO VOTE, WREL NOT ALLOWING PEOPLE TO VOTE BUT NOT HAVING THE CHANCE ABLE TO MATERIALIZE INTO SEATS.

>> JENNY, WHERE ARE YOU IN THIS?

>> I FIND THIS ALL DEEPLY DISTURBING.

GROWING UP IN THE MIDWEST, MINNESOTA, IOWA, THESE ARE SORT OF THESE MID WESTERN STATES THAT HAVE THESE REALLY STRONG CIVIC VALUES.

AND YOU KNOW, THIS IDEA OF INDEPENDENT REDISTRICTING ACTUALLY STARTED IN IOWA, WITH THIS KIND OF COMMOTION BROUGHT TOGETHER THAT IS ACTUALLY KIND OF A MIX OF ORDINARY CITIZENS AND PEOPLE WITH SOME SORT OF STANDING IN THE COMMUNITY, BUT ARE NOT PART OF THE POLITICAL SYSTEM.

AND I THINK THIS IDEA OF REDISTRICTING IS ABOUT REPRESENTATION, RIGHT.

SO WHEN YOU FORM DISTRICTS SO THAT PEOPLE ARE MAKING A VOTE FOR THEIR REPRESENTATIVE, HOW DO YOU FORM THAT DISTRICT IN A WAY THAT ACTUALLY REFLECTS THAT COMMUNITY?

OF COURSE WE HAVE SO MUCH DATA TODAY THAT WE CAN NOW VERY NICELY, EASILY RELATIVELY SPEAKING, MANIPULATE WHAT THE COMPOSITION OF THOSE DISTRICTS ARE TO FAVOR PARTICULAR PARTIES OR NOT.

AND THAT'S THE SITUATION THAT WE ARE NOW IN.

AND IF WE DON'T SHIFT TO SOMETHING THAT LOOKS MORE INDEPENDENT, THEN, YEAH, YOU HAVE THE ROOSTER WHO IS GUARDING THE HEN HOUSE.

>> CAN I JUST FOLLOW UP ON SOMETHING THAT YOU SAID.

SO LET'S IMAGINE THAT THE SUPREME COURT STARTED SAYING IN THE 1960S, THAT YOU CAN'T GROUP PEOPLE ACCORDING TO MARGINALIZED DEMOGRAPHICS.

RIGHT?

HOW ABOUT THIS IDEA.

THERE ARE ONLY TWO CRITERIA.

ONE IS THAT THERE HAS TO BE CONTINUITY, THE LINES HAVE TO BE CONTINUOUS AND THE POPULATION HAS TO BE EVEN.

WHY NOT LET A MACHINE DO IT?

WHY NOT JUST RUN A COMPUTER PROGRAM.

>> THERE HAS BEEN A DISCUSSION ABOUT THAT.

THAT WE SHOULD SET IT UP FOR A RANDOM DRAW BASED ON HUMAN PROGRAMS RATHER THAN HUMAN INTERVENTION.

BUT YOU HAVE A PROBLEM BECAUSE YOU HAVE MINORITY POPULATIONS IN OTHERWISE SAY WHITE DISTRICTS, HOW DO YOU ENSURE THAT IN THAT STATE, THOSE PEOPLE STILL HAVE A VOICE IN THEIR ELECTED GOVERNMENT?

AND THERE IS A RISK IF IT IS AN AUTOMATED SYSTEM OR ANY SYSTEM, HOW DO YOU ENSURE THAT MINORITIES IN THIS COUNTRY STILL HAVE REPRESENTATION?

>> THE WEIRD THING IS THAT HAVE YOU TO WORK AGAINST DESEGREGATION, RIGHT, IN ORDER TO ENSURE... >> KURT VONNEGUT, ONE OF MY FAVORITE AUTHORS WRESTLEDDED WITH THIS AND SAID WE OUGHT TO START WITH THE PHONE BOOK.

AND THE FIRST 10% GO THIS WAY AND THAT'S THE ONLY WAY YOU WILL GET TO THAT.

ONE THING IN NEW YORK, DON'T FORGET IN 2022, THE DEMOCRATS PUT FORWARD A MAP THAT WAS REJECTED BY THE COURTS AND A SPECIAL MASTER CAME FORTH AND PUT TOGETHER A MAP WHICH COST NEW YORK FOUR SEATS.

SO NEW YORK, WHILE IT MAY NOT STRICTLY BE, YOU KNOW, AN INDEPENDENT COMMISSION, DOES HAVE A CHECK AND BALANCE THAT APPEARS THAT TEXAS DOES NOT.

I REALLY THINK THAT DEMOCRATIC STATES MAY BE FORCED INTO THIS IN ORDER TO COUNTER WHAT IS GOING ON IN THE RED STATES BECAUSE THEY SEEM TO BE WILLING TO DO WHATEVER.

>> YEAH, WELL WE HAVE TO MOVE ON.

BUT I DO WANT TO ASK THIS QUESTION.

IN SO MANY OTHER AREAS WE HAVE SEEN THE SUPREME COURT STEP IN TO ACT AS A CHECK AND BALANCE ON THINGS THAT ARE GOING ARRIVE RYE.

YOU ARE SAYING DON'T LOOK FOR THAT TO HAPPEN HERE.

>> I WOULDN'T LOOK FOR IT TO HAPPEN HERE BUT AT LEAST SO FAR THE COURTS HAVE RULE THEY DON'T HAVE A PART TO PLAY.

THAT THIS IS REALLY ABOUT THE CONGRESSIONAL PROCESS AND THIS IS CONGRESS' JURISDICTION, NOT A COURT.

>> PARTISANSHIP IS FINE.

RACIAL COMPOSITION IS NOT.

EVEN THOUGH THEY CAN BE ONE AND THE SAME.

>> WE COULD GO ON THIS FOR A WHILE AND WE WILL PROBABLY HAVE TO COME BACK IF WE SEE THIS HAPPEN, BUT LET'S GO ON.

DIVERSITY, EQUITY AND INCLUSION PROGRAMS ON THE COLLEGE CAMPUS ARE GOING THE WAY OF THE WIND; FIRST AT COLUMBIA, AND NOW OTHER UNIVERSITIES ARE MAKING DEALS THAT REQUIRE THEM TO: TURN OVER HIRING AND ADMISSIONS DATA TO THE TRUMP ADMINISTRATION, TO PAY MILLIONS TO SETTLE DISCRIMINATION CLAIMS , SUBMIT TO MONITORING, AND ABANDON D.E.I.

OR, AS THE ADMINISTRATON PUT IT, ENSURE "MERIT-BASED HIRING AND , ADMISSIONS" IN RETURN , THE ADMINISTRATION WILL RELEASE BILLIONS IN FEDERAL FUNDS THAT IT'S BEEN WITHHOLDING.. JENNY, WHAT ARE WE TO MAKE OF THE FACT THAT UNIVERSITIES ARE ENTERING INTO THESE AGREEMENTS?

ARE THEY SELLING OUT?

>> THAT'S A GREAT QUESTION AND A FAIR QUESTION TO BE ASKING RIGHT NOW.

I'M GOING TO START BY UNPACKING A LITTLE BRITT THE POWER-- A LITTLE BIT THE POWER THAT THE FEDERAL GOVERNMENT HAS OVER UNIVERSITIES.

IF YOU ARE NOT LIVING IN ONE, YOU ARE NOT QUITE CLEAR.

HOW DOES THE FEDERAL GOVERNMENT EXPERTERT THIS POWER.

AS YOU MENTIONED, FEDERAL GOVERNMENT RESOURCES GO TO GRANTS.

AND THOSE GRANTS FUND RESEARCH LIKE RESEARCH I DO, THAT HELPS ME HIRE STUDENTS AND PAY FOR RESEARCH PARTICIPANTS AND A PORTION OF THAT MONEY GOES TO FUND KIND OF THE OPERATIONS OF THE UNIVERSITY.

AND SO THAT'S A MAJOR SOURCE OF REVENUE FOR UNIVERSITIES; AND ALSO A MAJOR RELATIONSHIP THAT THE FEDERAL GOVERNMENT HAS THEN WITH UNIVERSITIES.

SO THAT'S ONE MAJOR SOURCE.

THE OTHER IS THAT THE FEDERAL GOVERNMENT OVERSEES THE VISA PROGRAMS THAT THE STUDENTS WHO ARE ADMITTED TO UNIVERSITIES FROM OTHER COUNTRIES, GO THROUGH.

AND SO THERE IS A LEVERAGE POINT THAT THE FEDERAL GOVERNMENT HAS AROUND IMMIGRATION-- WELL, SPECIFICALLY INTERNATIONAL STUDENTS.

AND THOSE, AT LEAST AT MY UNIVERSITY, I SUSPECT AT YOURS, TOO, INTERNATIONAL STUDENTS ARE A VERY IMPORTANT SOURCE OF REVENUE BECAUSE THEY TYPICALLY PAY FULL FREIGHT OF THE TUITION WHEREAS DOMESTIC STUDENTS TEND TO PAY LESS.

THOSE ARE THE MECHANISMS TYPICALLY THE FEDERAL GOVERNMENT CAN AND HAS USED TO HELP STEER UNIVERSITIES IN WAYS THAT THEY WISH.

THAT'S THAT.

ON THE DEI FRONT, THE TRUMP ADMINISTRATION BASICALLY DAY ONE DECLARED THE DIVERSITY, EQUITY AND INCLUSION WAS DEAD; THAT IN HIS AMERICA, EVERYBODY IS LOOKED AT EQUALLY AND THERE SHOULD BE NO SPECIAL PRIVILEGES FOR ANYBODY.

NOW THE CHALLENGE HAS BEEN THAT THEIR DEI POLICIES HAVE BEEN VERY VAGUE.

IN FACT THERE WASN'T A POLICY.

JUST NO MORE DEI.

SO UNIVERSITIES HAVE GRAPPLED WITH WHAT THAT MEANS AND HOW DO THEY NEGOTIATE.

LOOK, UNIVERSITIES ARE REALLY CONSERVATIVE INSTITUTIONS FROM MY-- >> FUNDAMENTALLY.

>> THEY'RE TRYING VERY HARD TO CONSERVE AND PRESERVE THEIR MISSION, THEIR STATURE, AND AS A RESULT, I THINK IN THE FACE OF THESE INCREDIBLE PRESSURES, THEY ARE FUNCTIONALLY NAVIGATING THEM IN WAYS THAT LEAD TO THESE AGREEMENTS.

>> THE AGREEMENTS BUT LET ME PUSH BACK A LITTLE BIT, JENNY AND SAY THIS.

YOU MENTIONED THE FEDERAL FUNDS CUT OFF MECHANISM THAT ACTUALLY APPLIES TO SO MANY PARTS OF AMERICAN SOCIETY.

THAT'S HOW THE FEDERAL GOVERNMENT CONTROLS SO MUCH OF WHAT HAPPENS.

BUT IN THE CASE OF HARVARD, WHICH HAS A $50 BILLION PLUS ENDOWMENT.

IN THE CASE OF COLUMBIA, A $15 BILLION ENDOWMENT YOU REMEMBER JOHN LEWIS TALKED ABOUT GOOD TROUBLE.

WHY NOT JUST TAKE THE HIT?

TRUMP IS NOT GOING TO BE IN OFFICE FOREVER.

WHY NOT TAKE THE HIT, YOU KNOW, SUFFER FOR TWO OR THREE YEARS AND AT LEAST STAND FOR SOMETHING?

>> RIGHT, YEAH, I THINK THAT'S A VERY FAIR QUESTION AND LEGALLY THE UNIVERSITIES LIKELY WOULD HAVE COME OUT AHEAD.

BY AHEAD THEY LIKELY WOULD HAVE WON IN THE COURT BECAUSE THE EFFORTS THAT THE ADMINISTRATION HAS BEEN PUSHING ARE LIKELY NOT LEGAL.

BUT THEY ARE SETTLING.

AGAIN... HAVING SAT IN THE ROOM WHERE THE DECISIONS HAPPEN, WHAT I SEE IS THAT YOU HAVE BOARDS OF TRUSTEES WHO ARE VERY CONSERVATIVE, TYPICALLY.

THEY'RE VERY WEALTHY PEOPLE AND THEY'RE TIED IN OFTEN WAYS TO THE ADMINISTRATION.

THEY DON'T WANT THE FIGHT.

>> AND TO THE MARKET.

>> THERE ARE A COUPLE OF THINGS THAT, YOU KNOW, BIG ENDOWMENTS, MOST OF THOSE HAVE STRINGS ATTACHED TO THEM.

THEY'RE NOT ABLE TO JUST GO AND DIP INTO THAT LIKE A CHECKING ACCOUNT.

I BELIEVE BROWN HAD TO BORROW $ 200 MILLION IN THE FACE OF THIS.

SO IT'S NOT QUITE AS EASY AS SAYING THAT THEY SHOULD, YOU KNOW, JUST TALK THE HIT.

THE OTHER THING, IT'S NOT JUST GRANTS.

YOU KNOW, THE LEAVER THAT WORRIES, YOU KNOW, SCHOOLS LIKE UTICA AND PERHAPS I WOULD THINK LeMOYNE IS THE FINANCIAL AID LEAVER.

THEY HAVE THAT OVER US.

WHILE IT'S NOT SO MUCH THE NSA GRANTS ALTHOUGH WE HAVE SOME OF THOSE THERE, WHERE THEY REALLY CAN HURT SMALLER SCHOOLS BY JUST SAYING, YOU KNOW, WE ARE GOING TO STOP THE GRANTS, THE STUDENT AID TO YOU.

WE WOULDN'T LAST VERY LONG AT ALL.

>> A LOT OF SCHOOLS WOULD ACTUALLY SHUTTER.

>> ANIRBAN.

>> I THINK THE UNIVERSITIES GOT SPOOKED OUT THROWN INTO THIS CHAOS.

LIKE YES, YOU CAN FIGHT AND I THOUGHT-- I THINK THEY SHOULD HAVE FOUGHT IT IN THE COURT.

BUT IN THE MEAN TYPE, IF YOU LOSE A BUNCH OF FUNDING, THAT MEANS YOU ARE LOSING STUDENTS, YOU ARE LOSING GRADUATE STUDENTS.

YOU ARE LOSING LABORATORIES.

MANY OF THE PROFESSORS ARE IN H1B.

YOU DON'T KNOW WHAT WILL HAPPEN TO THEIR STAT FUSS THEY LOSE THEIR JOBS.

IT'S A GLOBAL SYSTEM, THE AMERICAN EDUCATION SYSTEM IS A VERY GLOBAL SYSTEM.

PEOPLE FROM AROUND THE WORLD COME HERE AND STUDY AND SO ON.

SO I THINK THAT'S WHAT SPOOKED THEM OUT.

I WANT TO TAKE A LITTLE SOCIOLOGICAL ROUTE.

A LITTLE CRITICISM ABOUT THE DEI ITSELF.

I BASICALLY SAW IT AS AN INTRACROSS RIVALRY AMONG THE PROFESSIONAL MANAGERIAL CLASS.

ONE PART OF THE PROFESSIONAL MANAGERIAL CLASS WE ONLY WANT CONSERVATIVE, WE NEED MERIT.

THE OTHER IS ABOUT DIVERSITY BUT NOBODY IS ASKING THAT WHY ACCESS TO ELITE INSTITUTION IS THE ONLY WAY YOU CAN THINK ABOUT RACIAL JUSTICE.

IF YOU DO A POLL AGO MUNG BLACKS, MOST BLACKS DON'T CARE ABOUT THIS BECAUSE 74% OF PEOPLE DON'T GO TO COLLEGE, RIGHT?

SO DECOUPLING THIS IDEA THAT, YOU KNOW, RACIAL JUSTICE CAN BE ACHIEVED WITHOUT GOING TO ELITE INS TEWES, MAY BE MORE JOBS AND MORE OPPORTUNITIES AND SO ON.

SO THAT MIGHT BE AN ISSUE.

>> I DO WANT TO ASK ANOTHER QUESTION, JUST SORT OF PIGGY BACKING ON YOUR EXCELLENT POINT.

75% OF AMERICANS DON'T GO TO COLLEGE ANYWAY.

AND TO YOUR POINT ABOUT BLACKS, THE U.S. POPULATION AS A WHOLE, REALLY WAS NEVER BEHIND DEI.

SO IS THAT PART OF THE STRENGTH OF WHY TRUMP HAS BEEN ABLE TO ACCOMPLISH SO MUCH HERE?

THAT HE HAS GOT THE PUBLIC BEHIND HIM?

>> I THINK THERE WAS A PROGRESSIVE ASPECT OF IDENTITY POLITICS BUT I HAVE ALSO SAID THERE IS A REGRESSIVE ASPECT, RIGHT?

WHEN YOU ARE, YOU KNOW, SOMEHOW TRYING TO TELL ME THAT A POOR WHITE PERSON WHO WORKS 80 HOURS A WEEK IS SOMEHOW OPPRESSING BOURGEOIS MIDDLE CLASS PROFESSOR BECAUSE THEY'RE BROWN, IT DOESN'T SIT RIGHT WITH MOST PEOPLE, RIGHT?

IT DOESN'T SEEM TO BE CORRECT AND MANY PEOPLE PUSH BACK ON THAT AND SINCE WE-- THE IDEA IS TO MAKE COLLEGE AFFORDABLE TO MOST PEOPLE, RATHER THAN THIS INTRACLASS CONFLICT THAT WE ARE KIND OF CAUGHT IN.

>> IT HAS TO BE FIXED ELSEWHERE.

SO WE HAVE TO MOVE ON TO TALK ABOUT ANOTHER TOPIC.

IT IS OFFICIAL.

THE CORPORATION FOR PUBLIC BROADCASTING WILL SHUT DOWN BY THE END OF THE YEAR.

IT'S SOMETHING THE REPUBLICANS HAVE WANTED FOR A LONG TIME AND THE RECENTLY ENACTED BIG BEAUTIFUL BILL HAS FINALLY GIVEN THEM WHAT THEY WANT.

THE BILL CLAWED BACK ONE BILLION DOLLARS THAT WERE PREVIOUSLY EARMARKED BY CONGRESS.

CRITICS OF THIS MOVE SAY THAT IT WILL MAINLY HURT, PBS AFFILIATES IN SMALL, RURAL COMMUNITIES.

ANIRBAN, WHO DO YOU THINK WILL BE MOST AFFECTED BY THE LOSS OF CPB MONEY?

>> YOU SAID IT, RIGHT?

LIKE SMALL COMMUNITIES THAT DEPEND ON PUBLIC RADIO, PUBLIC RADIO PUBLIC TELEVISION FOR WEATHER, NEWS AND IMPORTANT INFORMATION.

THEY WILL BE HURT THE MOST.

AND HERE, YOU KNOW, I JUST WANT TO CLARIFY THIS BECAUSE MANY PEOPLE I HAVE TALKED TO ARE LIKE, THIS IS STATE MEDIA.

THIS IS NOT STATE SPONSORED MEDIA LIKE IN OTHER PLACES LIKE IRAN OR RUSSIA.

IT IS ACTUALLY HAS A VERY CLEAR -- IT'S A PRIVATE NON-PROFIT WITH A VERY CLEAR STATUTORY FIREWALL THAT FORBIDS IT FROM POLITICAL INTERFERENCE, RIGHT?

IT'S A MISCHARACTERIZATION OF IT CALLING IT STATE SPONSORED MEDIA.

BUT AT THE END OF THE DAY WE SEE THAT MANY OF THE PROGRAMS MIGHT ACTUALLY STILL SURVIVE, AS I WAS LOOKING AT SOME OF THE INTERVIEWS BY THE C.E.O.

AND SO ON.

>> THEIR SURVIVAL WILL DEPEND ON THEM BEING MORE SENSITIVE TO MARKET FORCES.

ARE YOU HOPEFUL ABOUT THE DYNAMIC OR MORE FUNDRAISING?

>> CPB, BY LAW, IS PROHIBITED FROM PRODUCING PROGRAMMING.

SO I THINK THE BIAS CLAIMS AND ALL THAT, THAT REALLY HAS MORE TO DO WITH THE DECISIONS THAT ARE MADE BY NPR AND PBS, BUT THIS WAS THE WAY THE TRUMP ADMINISTRATION COULD GET AT THEM SO I AGREE WITH ANIRBAN, I THINK THAT, IN LARGE CITIES, BOSTON, NEW YORK, THERE WILL BE FUNDS THAT WILL BE MADE DISPLEASURE BUT SAW WHAT THE IMPACT WOULD BE LOCALLY AND DIDN'T WANT THAT.

MY QUESTION IS, WHEN THERE ARE CUTS, WILL THOSE PEOPLE IN THOSE DISTRICTS TAKE IT OUT ON THEIR REPUBLICAN REPRESENTATIVES?

MY GUESS IS NO, BUT POSSIBLY.

>> IT'S INTERESTING, RIGHT?

A NEW POLL JUST CAME OUT THAT SHOWS THAT 50%-- 57% OF REPUBLICANS REGISTERED REPUBLICANS ACTUALLY SUPPORT CPB AND PUBLIC BROADCASTING AND YOU KNOW, 75% OF DEMOCRATS.

SO THE MAJORITY OF THE PUBLIC IS ACTUALLY IN FAVOR OF THESE MEDIA AND THE PUBLIC SEES NPR, PBS AND THE LIKE AS RELATIVELY NEUTRAL HIGH QUALITY CONTENT RELATIVE TO THE COMMERCIAL MARKET, WHICH IS A LOT OF CLICK BAIT GOTCHA.

>> RIGHT, AND THAT WAS THE ORIGINAL RATIONALE, RIGHT?

TO PROMOTE QUALITY CONTENT.

BUT TO YOUR POINT, NOT ONLY DO MOST WANT OR WANTED THIS FEDERAL FUNDING TO CONTINUE, BUT WHEN ASKED WHAT DO YOU CONSIDER TO BE THE MOST TRUST WORTHY MEDIA INSTITUTION, IT'S ALWAYS PBS AND NPR.

>> BUT AGAIN, I THINK THIS IS PART OF A LARGER IDEOLOGICAL PUSH BY CONSERVATIVES TO BASICALLY SAY THAT THE MARKET SERVES THE NEED OF THE PUBLIC.

AND THEREFORE WE DON'T NEED ANY SORT OF TAXPAYER DOLLARS GOING TO SUPPORT PUBLIC MEDIA, WHICH I FRANKLY, FROM MY PERSPECTIVE, IS WRONG.

>> THEY SAY SUPPORT LIBERAL MEDIA.

>> THIS IS THE THING, RIGHT?

THIS LIBERAL BIAS AND SO ON.

I DON'T GET IT.

PBS NEWSHOUR, I DISAGREE WITH DAVID BROOKS ABOUT 99.9% OF THE TIME.

THAT DOESN'T MEAN THAT HE DOESN'T HAVE A GOOD POINT THAT I NEED TO HEAR AND WORK AGAINST AND THINK ABOUT MY OWN RESPONSE TO THOSE ARGUMENTS.

SO I THINK IT'S MORE ABOUT AGONY AGAINST FACTUALISTS.

IT'S A FIGHT AGAINST FACTS RATHER THAN A FIGHT AGAINST ANY KIND OF BIAS BECAUSE I MEAN THERE HAS BEEN A LOT OF DIFFERENT OPINIONS ACROSS THE SPECTRUM IN PBS AND NPR AND SO.

>> AND CONSERVATIVES... >> WE HAVE A HARD STOP NOW BUT I THINK THAT'S TRUE ACROSS THE BOARD.

SO CLEARLY WE COULD GO ON AND ON.

THANKS EVERYBODY.

SO IT IS TIME NOW FOR US TO GO TO THE GRADEBOOK AND WE ARE GOING TO START WITH YOUR F, RICK.

>> TO THE PRESIDENT, LAST FRIDAY THE BUREAU OF LABOR STATISTICS RELEASED DATA THAT SHOWED THAT THE ECONOMY ONLY ADDED 73,000 JOBS IN JULY.

THEY ALSO REVISED THE MAY AND JUNE FIGURES TO INDICATE JOB GROWTH HAS BEEN EXTREMELY SLOW OVER THE LAST THREE MONTHS.

INSTEAD OF USING THIS INFORMATION TO JUSTIFY WHY HE BELIEVES THE FEDERAL RESERVE IS WRONG IN LOWERING INTEREST RATES, PRESIDENT TRUMP INSTEAD CLAIMED THAT THE LABOR MARKET IS FINE AND THE DATA WAS RIGGED AND HE FIRED ERIC McTARFER, COMMISSIONER OF THE BUREAU.

MANY CRIT SUSSED THE MOVE.

BUT EVENTUALLY EVEN THOSE THAT HAD PRAISED THE BLS?

THE PAST PREDICTABLY FELL IN LINE WITH TRUMP.

>> ANIRBAN.

>> TO THE DEPARTMENT OF HEALTH AND HUMAN SERVICES RECENT CANCELLATION OF $500 MILLION WORTH OF GRANTS AND CONTRACTS DEVELOPING VACCINES WHICH ARE CRUCIAL TO THE DEVELOPMENT OF SOPHISTICATED VACCINES AGAINST VIRUSES THAT END PANDEMIC AND MAKE AMERICA SICK AGAIN.

MASA FOR YOU.

>> JENNY.

>> SO MY F GOES TO THE DEPARTMENT OF 450U7 AND SECURITY FACILITIES ACROSS THE U.S. OVER CROWDING, INADEQUATE NUTRITION AND ABUSIVE TREATMENT FROM GUARDS ARE JUST SOME OF THE ALLEGATIONS.

I THOUGHT WE WERE A NATION THAT UPHOLDS A SHARED VALUE OF RESPECT FOR HUMAN RIGHTS BUT TRAWSM'S STORIES ON THE CAMPAIGN TRAIL OF IMMIGRANTS OF VIOLENCE AND IMPORAL GIVES LICENSE TO THE ADMINISTRATION TREATING IMMIGRANT DETAINEES AS LESS THAN HUMAN.

HISTORY HAS TAUGHT US WHAT THAT LEADS TO.

>> AND SO NOW WE HAVE TO MOVE TO SOME GOOD NEWS.

AND WE ARE GOING TO START WITH YOU, RICK.

GIVE US YOUR A.

>> MY A GOES TO DAN PELSER WHO PASSED AWAY LAST MONTH AT THE AGE OF 92.

HIS FAMILY CREATED A WEBSITE.

WHAT DAN READ.COM WHERE THEY DOWNLOADED A READING LIST HE STARTED COMPILING IN 1962.

BY THE TIME HE LOST SIGHT IN 2023, HE HAD READ 3599 BOOKS.

REMARKABLE NOT ONLY FOR THE SHEER NUMBER BUT IN HIS PERSEVERANCE IN KEEPING TRACK OF THIS LIST FOR OVER 60 YEARS.

I SUGGEST TAKING A LOOK AT THIS LIST.

I FOUND SOME VERY INTERESTING THINGS THERE.

>> IF I WANT TO PLAY CATCH UP.

3,000.

>> 599.

>> NOT WITH ANY APPS, WRITING IT ON PAPER.

MY A GOES TO ANTHONY AGUILAR, A 25-YEAR-OLD U.S. ARMY VETERAN AND GREEN BERET FOR DISCLOSING THE CRUELTY FOR FOOD AID IN GAZA.

HE SAID HE HAD NEVER WITNESSED THE BRUTALITY AGAINST A CIVILIAN POPULATION.

WITHOUT QUESTION I WITNESSED WAR CRIMES, THE SIGHTS HAVE NOT ONLY BEEN DEATH TRAPS BUT DESIGNED TO BE DEATH TRAPS.

>> JENNY.

>> ALL RIGHT.

MY A GOES TO THE REINTRODUCTION OF THE GRAY WOLF IN YELLOWSTONE NATIONAL PARK.

SMALL WOLFPACKS RELEASED 30 YEARS AGO AND TODAY WE ARE SEEING THAT THE REDUCTION IN THE POPULATION OF ELK MEANS WE HAVE ASPEN AND THAT HELPS TO PROMOTE THE ECOSYSTEM WHICH WE DESPERATELY NEED RIGHT,000.

>> THANKS, WE ARE OUT OF TIME.

AND SO THAT'S IT FOR US TONIGHT HERE IN THE STUDIO, BUT WE WOULD LOVE TO CONTINUE THE CONVERSATION WITH YOU.

WRITE TO THE ADDRESS ON YOUR SCREEN , IF YOU WANT TO WATCH THE SHOW AGAIN OR SHARE IT WITH OTHERS.

GO TO WCNY.ORG.

I'M NINA MOORE.

FOR ALL OF US HERE AT IVORY TOWER, GOOD NIGHT.