>> COMING UP NEXT ON "IVORY TOWER," SHOULD THE POPE STAY OUT OF WORLD AFFAIRS?

ALSO, IS VIKTOR ORBAN'S LOSS A WARNING TO MAGA CONSERVATIVES?

AND, IS GOVERNOR HOCHUL RIGHT TO PUMP THE BRAKES ON CLIMATE GOALS?

STAY TUNED FOR ANSWERS, WE'LL BE RIGHT BACK.

THIS PROGRAM IS BROUGHT TO YOU BY THE MEMBERS OF WCNY.

THANK YOU.

♪ ♪ ♪ ♪ >> GOOD EVENING AND WELCOME TO "IVORY TOWER," THANK YOU FOR JOINING US.

I'M NINA MOORE OF COLGATE UNIVERSITY.

THE PROFESSORS AROUND THE TABLE TONIGHT ARE LUKE PERRY OF UTICA UNIVERSITY ANIRBAN ACHRYA OF LEMOYNE COLLEGE SARAH PRALLE OF SYRACUSE UNIVERSITY AND AARON STRONG OF HAMILTON COLLEGE PRESIDENT TRUMP IS IN A WAR OF WORDS WITH THE POPE, CALLING HIM “WEAK ON CRIME” AND “TERRIBLE FOR FOREIGN POLICY”.

VICE PRESIDENT VANCE JOINED THE FRAY, ADDING THE POPE SHOULD STAY OUT OF U.S.

AFFAIRS.

BUT THE POPE IS DOING THE EXACT OPPOSITE.

HE CONTINUES TO CONDEMN THE WAR IN IRAN.

SAYING JUST THIS WEEK THAT, “GOD'S HEART IS TORN APART BY WARS, VIOLENCE, INJUSTICE AND LIES”.

AND, HE HAS “NO FEAR” OF THE TRUMP ADMINISTRATION.

SARAH, DOES THIS STRIKE YOU AS ODD, TO SEE A POPE THIS BOLD IN SPEAKING OUT AGAINST WAR?

>> NO, AND I WOULD SAY IT'S AS MUCH OF A POLITICAL ACT TO SAY NOTHING AND TO BE SILENT ON THESE ISSUES AS IT IS TO SAY SOMETHING.

SILENCE DOESN'T MEAN YOU ARE NOT POLITICAL.

AND IT WOULD BE VERY ODD IN THIS CASE AROUND AN ISSUE WHERE THE CATHOLIC CHURCH HAS VERY STRONG MORAL STANCES AND DOCTRINAL TEACHINGS SUCH AS ISSUES ABOUT WAR AND PEACE AND JUST WAR THEORY WHICH SAYS THAT WAR ONLY IS JUSTIFIED IN CASES OF LAST RESORT AND IN SELF-DEFENSE.

AND CLEARLY THIS IRAN WAR OF CHOICE DOES NOT FIT THAT.

AND I WOULD SAY, TOO, THE JUST WAR THEORY WAS DEVELOPED BY ST.

AUGUSTINE.

POPE LEO WAS LEADER OF THING ATTENTIONIAN ORDER FOR 10 YEARS SO I THINK HE KNOWS SOMETHING ABOUT THE.

MANY POPES HAVE SPOKEN OUT ABOUT AGAINST WAR.

POPE VI IN 1965 SPOKE OUT AGAINST THE VIETNAM WAR.

POPE JOHN II LATER SPOKE OUT ABOUT THE IRAQ WAR.

FRANCIS CALLED FOR PEACE IN GAZA, SYRIA AND ELSEWHERE.

AND THEN THE COUNTER CASE IS POPE PIOUS XII WHO LED THE CHURCH DURING THE HOLOCAUST AND DID NOT SPEAK OUT AGAINST THAT VOCALLY.

I'M NOT EQUATING THE IRAN WAR TO THAT BUT CLEARLY THAT DOESN'T WORK EITHER.

SO I THINK HE IS COMPLETELY JUSTIFIED AND I WOULD JUST ADD I'M VERY MUCH LOOKING TO THE DAY WHERE WE DON'T HAVE TO LISTEN TO THE DERANGED RANTS OF THIS NARCISSISTIC PRESIDENT AND IT'S FRONT PAGE NEWS.

>> WELL I'M SURE WE WILL COME BACK TO THAT THEME AT SOME POINT.

ANIRBAN, FOLLOWING UP ON SARAH'S POINT ABOUT JUST WAR THEORY AND ITS ROLE IN CATHOLIC POLITICS AS WE'LL CALL IT FOR TONIGHT A NUMBER OF CARDINALS SAY FOLKS ARE MISUNDERSTANDING.

THE JUST WAR THEORY DOESN'T ENDORSE WAR BUT IT PROVIDES A MORAL FRAMEWORK.

>> ABSOLUTELY.

ABSOLUTELY CORRECT.

THAT JUST WAR THEORY PROVIDES A MORAL FRAMEWORK FOR WAGING WAR.

RECENTLY BISHOP JAMES MASSA WHO CAME OUT AND STARTED SPEAKING AFTER J.D.

VANCE WAS LECTURING POPE ABOUT THEOLOGY, JAMES MASSA SAID THE POPE DIDN'T SAY ANYTHING WRONG.

HE SAID YOU SHOULD NOT ACTIVELY WAGE WAR.

YOU CAN DEFEND YOURSELF AGAINST SOMEONE WHO IS ACTIVELY WAGING WAR.

THAT IS JUST WAR.

BUT AND THAT IS WHAT THE HOLY FATHER ACTUALLY SAID.

HE DOESN'T LISTEN TO THE PRAYERS OF PEOPLE WHO ACT OFIVE GENERALLY HIVE ACTIVELY WAGE WAR.

THAT WAS MISINTERPRETED BY THE TRUMP ADMINISTRATION.

VANCE DOESN'T CARE ABOUT THAT.

AT THE END OF THE DAY, SARAH AS YOU POINT OUT.

BARACK OBAMA, JOHN F. KENNEDY, GEORGE HAD DIRCHESES WITH WHAT THE POPE SAID BUT THE REPRESENTATION OF IT WAS MORE CIVIL, MORE DIPLOMATIC, MORE RESPECTFUL.

AND HERE YOU SEE KIND OF THIS UNHINGED ATTACK ON A WORLD'S RELIGIOUS LEADER.

THIS IS NOT SOMEBODY WHO IS LIKE, YOU KNOW, YOUR LOCAL PASTOR.

NOTHING AGAINST THEM, SO TO SAY.

IT IS UNFORTUNATE TO SEE THAT KIND OF VITRIOL AND ATTACK AGAINST A RELIGIOUS LEADER WHO IS SAYING WORDS OF PEACE AND KINDNESS.

THE MEEK SHALL INHERIT THE EARTH.

WHERE IS THAT TRADITION.

>> IT IS BIBLICAL AARON.

>> THE POPE HAS BEEN CONSISTENT NOW IN SPEAKING OUT AGAINST THE POWERFUL AND TRYING TO HOLD THEM TO ACCOUNT.

SO HE IS IN CAMEROON RIGHT NOW AND HE HAS BEEN TALKING ABOUT TRUMP.

CAMEROON HAS A LEADER WHO HAS BEEN IN POWER FOR 43 YEARS.

HE IS IN HIS 90s.

WON HIS EIGHTH TERM IN IN A CONTESTED ELECTION THAT WAS NOT FAIR.

YOU KNOW WHAT THE POPE SAID STANDING IN FRONT OF THIS LEADER.

IN ORDER FOR PEACE AND JUSTICE TO PREVAIL, THE CHAINS OF CORRUPTION WHICH DISFIGURE AUTHORITY AND STRIP IT OF ITS AUTHORITY MUST BE BROKEN AND HE IS SPEAKING TO A CORRECT LEADER.

HE IS CONSISTENT IN CALLING OUT THOSE WHO ARE CORRUPT AND IN POWER AND FURTHER INJUSTICES TRYING TO DEFEND THOSE WHO DON'T HAVE POWER AND NEED SUPPORT.

AND I THINK WE ARE GOING TO SEE MORE POLITICAL STATEMENTS FROM THE POPE, NOT JUST ABOUT THINGS THE TRUMP ADMINISTRATION IS DOING.

>> YEAH, LUKE.

>> I THINK HE BEGAN HIS PAPACY BY TRYING ASSURE CONSERVATIVE CATHOLICS THAT HE WAS GOING TO HARKEN TRADITION.

HE MADE SEVERAL SYMBOLIC MOVES TO DIFFERENTIATE HIMSELF FROM POPE FRANCIS IN SOME WAYS AND MODIFY CONCERNS THAT POPE FRANCIS WAS TOO MUCH OF A PUBLIC FIGURE, SPOKE OUT IN TOO MANY WAYS.

BUT AS AARON SAID, HE DOES SPEAK TO ISSUES THAT HE HAS LONG BEEN PASSIONATE ABOUT AND I THINK HE HAS DONE IT WITH A KEEN EYE TOWARDS POLITICS BOTH WITHIN THE CHURCH AND INTERNATIONALLY.

>> YEAH, SARAH, ONE OF THE THINGS THAT FOLKS HAVE SAID ABOUT THIS POPE AND IN PARTICULAR THE DIRECTOR OF GEORGETOWN'S SCHOOL OF CATHOLIC SOCIAL THOUGHT, I THINK IS THE NAME OF IT IS THE CHARGED NATURE OF THESE EXCHANGES IS WHAT IS DIFFERENT.

AND ALSO THE PREVIOUS POPES THAT YOU TALKED ABOUT DIDN'T NAME NAMES.

AND IN THIS CASE, THE POPE SAID I HAVE NO FEAR OF THE TRUMP ADMINISTRATION.

WHAT ARE YOUR THOUGHTS ABOUT THAT?

>> WELL THAT STATEMENT IS VERY INTERESTING AND IT WASN'T CALLING HIM OUT ON LIKE TRUMP'S WARS.

NOT THAT HE SAID THAT.

HE SAID I HAVE NO FEAR.

AND I THINK THAT'S A VERY IMPORTANT POLITICAL MESSAGE BECAUSE HE IS ASTUTE IN SAYING THAT I THINK HE IS INVITING OTHER ELITES TO SAY, YOU CAN SPEAK OUT ON THESE IMPORTANT MORAL AND ETHICAL QUESTIONS IF YOU HAVE DISAGREEMENTS WITH THEM AND HE IS TRYING TO GIVE PEOPLE, I THINK, COURAGE.

AT LEAST THAT'S HOW I WOULD INTERPRET IT.

>> IT'S PART OF THE CONTEMPORARY CATHOLIC ETHOS.

BE NOT AFRAID.

I WILL GO BEFORE YOU ALWAYS.

THAT'S A POPULAR CATHOLIC HYMN AND THE POPE IS PERSONIFYING THAT.

>> THINKING ABOUT THE POLITICS RIGHT HERE, ONE OUT OF EVERY FIVE CATHOLICS VOTED FOR THE TRUMP ADMINISTRATION.

THAT WAS A BIT OF A SHIFT FROM THE VOTE FOR BIDEN.

ARE REPUBLICANS RISKING LOSING THE CATHOLIC BASE BECAUSE THE CARDINALS AND BISHOPS ARE UNITED BEHIND THIS POPE.

THEY HAVE COME OUT AND ECHOED HIM.

>> AS SOON AS THE MEME OF THE PRESIDENT AS A DOCTOR WHO LOOKED LIKE JESUS APPARENTLY, SO LET'S PUT IT THAT WAY.

WHEN THAT CAME OUT, YOU KNOW, HE GOT A LOT OF BACKLASH FROM OTHER PEOPLE.

GENERALLY HE DOESN'T TAKE DOWN HIS POSTS.

THIS POST HE HAD TO TAKE DOWN AND PUT ANOTHER POST DOWN WHERE JESUS IS HUGGING HIM AND SO ON.

TRUMP, IN HIS MIND, TO BE SURE, MIGHT THINK THAT HE HAS DONE A LOT OF THINGS FOR CHRISTIANS IN TERMS OF, YOU KNOW, THE SUPREME COURT, REGARDING ABORTION AND GAY RIGHTS AND LGBTQ.

SO IN HIS MIND, HE MIGHT FEEL OFFENDED IN A WAY THAT THE POPE IS ATTACKING HIM, EVEN THOUGH HE HAS DONE SO MUCH STUFF FOR CHRISTIANS.

>> BUT THE POPE IS TALKING ABOUT WAR, RIGHT?

>> THAT'S THE THING.

HERE HE IS TALKING ABOUT WAR.

AND AGAIN, LIKE THEY ARE VERY TOUCHY ABOUT THE FACT THAT IF SOMEONE SAYS THAT THIS WAR WAS UNNECESSARY OR NOT A JUST WAR, THAT GETS REALLY DEFENSIVE ABOUT THAT.

>> YEAH, DISAGREEMENT.

THIS POPE IS FROM THE SOUTH SIDE OF CHICAGO.

SO, BEING FROM THERE, WE DON'T TAKE IT LYING DOWN.

IN IN ANY CASE, MOVING ON TO OUR NEXT TOPIC.

SOME CONSIDER VIKTOR ORBAN'S DEFEAT IN HUNGARY'S PRIME MINISTER ELECTION A SIGN OF WHAT IS TO COME FOR THE MAGA MOVEMENT HERE IN THE U.S.

ORBAN AND MAGA CONSERVATIVES SHARED A LOT IN COMMON.

ON IMMIGRATION, SQUEEZING THE NEWS MEDIA, CLAMPING DOWN ON UNIVERSITIES, ON ALLEGATIONS OF GOVERNMENT CORRUPTION, AND MORE.

THE VICE PRESIDENT TRAVELED TO HUNGARY STUMP FOR ORBAN.

AND THE PRESIDENT PHONED IN.

AND THEN ORBAN LOST.

BY A LANDSLIDE.

LUKE, SHOULD ORBAN'S DEFEAT WORRY THE MAGA BASE AND ITS LEADERS?

>> I THINK THAT PRESIDENT TRUMP'S LOST A ROLE MODEL, LOST A MENTOR.

A LOT OF THE THINGS WE HAVE SEEN IN RIGHT WING POP LIFT POLITICS IN AMERICA WAS INSPIRED BY ORBAN AND HIS STACK TACTICS.

IF YOU MISMANAGED THE ECONOMY AND BLATANTLY STEAL FROM THE STATE FOR SELF SERVING REASONS, EVEN IF YOU ARE UNDERMINE DEMOCRACY, YOU ARE NOT GOING TO WIN.

IT WAS A HISTORICAL ELECTION IN HUNGARY.

HAVING LIVED THERE LAST YEAR, I'VE HEARD FROM MY FRIENDS.

IT WAS SUCH A LANDSLIDE THAT ORBAN WAS NOT ABLE TO CAST OUT HEIGHT-- WAS NOT ABLE TO CAST DOUBT ON THE OUTCOME.

>> THAT IS WHAT STRUCK ME.

TWO-THIRDS WHO VOTED FOR HIM, ANIRBAN, SO PERHAPS THAT'S ONE BIG DIFFERENCE IS THAT HE CONCEDED DEFEAT FAIRLY EARLY ON.

YOUR REACTION.

>> WHICH IS REFRESHING TO SEE THAT SOMEONE WHO IS CLOSE TO TRUMP CONCEDING DEFEAT.

THIS IS A GOOD THING.

THIS IS GOOD PROGRESS I WOULD SAY.

LOOK, WHEN HE CAME INTO POWER, A COUPLE OF THINGS HE DID.

HE MADE SOME CHANGES IN THE CONSTITUTION IN THE COURT AND IN MEDIA, WHICH BASICALLY RENDERED THE OPPOSITION JUST NOMINAL, RIGHT?

AND THAT'S WHY YOU WILL WIN ELECTIONS BUT YOU CANNOT COME INTO POWER.

BUT HIS MAIN THING WAS, YOU KNOW, WORKERS AND WORKERS BEING ABLE TO HAVE MORE, BUT OVER TIME IT SEEMS THAT THE WORKER RIGHTS DIDN'T GO ANYWHERE, RIGHT?

IT WAS OPENED UP TO CORPORATIONS , WAGES KEPT FALLING.

THERE WAS A CHILD SEX SCANDAL THAT THERE WAS A COVER UP AND AFTER 16 YEARS, I THINK PEOPLE WERE FED UP WITH THIS KIND OF THING.

AND HUNGARIANS HAVE SPOKEN.

HE WAS PART OF ORBAN'S GOVERNMENT BUT PLATER BROKE UP IN 2022 OR SOMETHING LIKE THAT.

AND NOW THERE IS A NEW THING THAT THERE IS A NEW INVESTIGATION ABOUT WHERE MAGIR WANTS TO DO, WHERE IT'S ALLEGED THAT A LOT OF MONEY HAS BEEN TRANSFERRED, PUBLIC MONEY HAS BEEN TRANSFERRED TO CNAC WHICH WILL CREATE HEAD WINDS FOR HIM.

HE CONSIDERED DEFEAT.

THE MAIN REASON FOR CONCEDING DEFEAT WAS THE ECONOMIC REASONS.

THE CUCIALTD ISSUES DIDN'T HOLD THAT MUCH GIVEN THE ECONOMIC MISS USING OF THE HUNGARIAN WORKING CLASS.

>> DO YOU SEE PARALLELS HERE WITH RESPECT TO THE IMPORTANCE OF THE ECONOMY.

>> YES, REPUBLICANS SHOULD BE SCARED BECAUSE OUR ECONOMY IS FALTERING OBVIOUSLY BUT ON OTHER COMMENTARY FROM THE RIGHT THEY'RE SAYING THIS ISN'T SUCH THE DEFEAT FOR MAGA AND WE SHOULDN'T BE SO CONCERNED ABOUT IT, IN PART BECAUSE MAGIR IS QUITE CONSERVATIVE ON A LOT OF ISSUES THAT ARE CENTRAL IN MAGA, SPECIFICALLY IMMIGRATION.

HE IS VERY HAWKISH ON IMMIGRATION, ALMOST MORE SO THAN ORBAN.

HE IS NOT ON PROGRESSIVE ON CULTURAL ISSUES LIKE LGBTQ RIGHTS.

IT SHOWS THAT THOSE PARTS OF THE AGENDA, RIGHT WING AND POP LIFT AGENDA ARE VERY POPULAR SO THEY'RE NOT WORRIED.

BUT IN MY OPINION, POLITICS IS A LOT ABOUT SYMBOLS AND NARRATIVES.

THIS IS DEFINITELY A DEFEAT FOR RIGHT WING POPULISM AND THE MAGA MOVEMENT BECAUSE THEY HELD HIM UP, HUNGARY AND ORBAN AS THESE GREAT MODELS, RIGHT?

SO I THINK LEFT AND PROGRESSIVES CAN FRAME THIS AS A HUGE DEFEAT, RIGHT?

AND I THINK THAT MOST PEOPLE WOULD SEE THAT THE FALL OF THEIR , YOU KNOW,IDOL IS REALLY IMPORTANT SYMBOLICALLY.

>> I THINK ONE OF THE KEY LESSONS HERE FOR AMERICAN POLITICS IS THE FOCUS ON AFFORDABILITY WORKS, RIGHT?

YOU HAD SOMEONE WHO WAS IN POWER FOR 16 YEARS.

BIG GROUP OF PEOPLE DON'T LIKE HIM BUT THEY LOSE A FEW ELECTIONS AND FINALLY ENOUGH PEOPLE ARE FED UP WITH TWO THINGS: THEY'RE FED UP WITH THE COST OF LIVING AND THEY'RE NOT ABLE TO SUCCEED AND GET JOBS.

AND THEN THEY'RE REALLY FED UP WITH THE CIRCUS SHOW.

THE CONSTANT BARRAGE OF THIS AND THAT AND CONSTANT SCANDAL AND THOSE ARE THE TWO THINGS GOING ON.

THERE ARE A LOT OF PARALLELS FOR US IN THIS COUNTRY OF THE CIRCUS SHOW AND MAJOR CRISIS OF AFFORDABILITY WE HAVE RIGHT NOW.

>> NOT TO MENTION CORRUPTION WHICH THE DEMOCRATS SHOULD EXPLOIT A LOT MORE OF THE CURRENT ADMINISTRATION.

>> LUKE, IF WE JUST THINK ABOUT THE POPULISM PIECE AND SEPARATE FROM IT THE U.S., WE ARE SEEING POPULISM ON THE RISE IN OTHER EUROPEAN COUNTRIES LIKE GERMANY AND FRANCE.

SO ARE THERE SOME GLOBAL LESSONS HERE BECAUSE THOSE MOVEMENTS ABROAD HAVEN'T EXACTLY HAD A DEFEAT JUST YET.

AS I SAID, THEY'RE ON THE RISE.

>> YES, I THINK RIGHT WING POPULISM HAS BEEN A FORCE FOR THE LAST 15 YEARS.

THIS IS A SETBACK BUT IT'S ALSO A COUNTRY THAT IS VIRTUALLY THE SIZE OF NEW HAMPSHIRE HOMOGENEOUS AND VERY DIFFERENT FROM THE UNITED STATES IN A LOT OF WAYS.

MY STUDENTS WHEN I TAUGHT IN HUNGARY LAST FALL THOUGHT IT WAS UNUSUAL HOW MUCH WE PRIORITIZE THE ECONOMY AND HERE WE ARE ANALYZING THEIR ELECTORAL SITUATION THROUGH THE LENS OF THE ECONOMY.

WHICH IS ACCURATE AND I GRATE AGREE.

IT IS A BIG WAVE THAT HAS CHOPPY WATERS RIGHT NOW IN TERMS OF POPULISM IN THE WEST.

>> I THINK WHAT THE PARTY DID WAS THEY COULD NOT FOLD THE LIBERAL LEFT SPACE TO THEMSELVES AND DIDN'T HAVE ANY CONFLICT WITH THE GAY PARADE IN BUD BUDAPEST.

THEY STAYED AWAY FROM THE CULTURAL WARS AND HELPED MOVE THE LIBERAL LEFT WITHIN THE CAMP.

ORBAN MIX DIDN'T WORK AT THE SAME TIME.

>> WE WILL SEE WHAT THE REPERCUSSIONS ARE AS THINGS EVOLVE.

MOVING ON NOW.

GOVERNOR KATHY HOCHUL WANTS TO HIT THE PAUSE BUTTON ON SOME OF THE STATE'S CLIMATE GOALS.

SUCH AS THE PLAN TO REDUCE GREENHOUSE GASSES BY 40 PERCENT IN 2030.

LIKE OTHER GOVERNORS.

HOCHUL BELIEVES THE STATE CANNOT MEET ITS 2030 TARGET WITHOUT IMPOSING WHAT SHE SAYS ARE, CRUSHING COSTS ON NEW YORK'S BUSINESSES AND RESIDENTS.

THE NEW YORK CIVIL LIBERTIES UNION SAYS THE EXACT OPPOSITE.

THAT MEETING CLIMATE GOALS WILL SAVE NEW YORKERS MONEY.

AARON, WHICH IS IT?

>> IT'S BOTH.

AND I KNOW PEOPLE DON'T LIKE TO HEAR THAT BUT HERE IS WHAT I MEAN BY IT'S BOTH.

WE HAVE SOMETHING THAT IS NOT A TECHNOLOGY PROBLEM.

WE ACTUALLY HAVE THE TECHNOLOGY TO PUT IN PLACE TO SOLVE CLIMATE CHANGE.

THIS IS AN IMPLEMENTATION PROBLEM.

RIGHT NOW IMPLEMENTING THIS HAS HIGH UP FRONT COSTS FOR PEOPLE THAT THEY CAN'T AFFORD.

POLITICALLY THAT'S DEVASTATING.

YOU CAN'T GO IN AND SAY PRICES YOU ARE PAYING FOR ELECTRICITY ARE GOING UP AND WE NEED YOU TO ELECTRIC TRIPHI EVERYTHING.

CARS ARE EXPENSIVE.

IN THE LONG RUN THIS SAVES PEOPLE MONEY.

WE NEED TO THINK ABOUT IMPLEMENTATION WITH OUR POLICIES.

HOCHUL IS RIGHT.

IT IS GOING TO TAKE LONGER THAN 2030 TO DO THIS.

AGAIN WE HAVE THE TECHNOLOGIES, WIND, SOLAR, HYDRO, BATTERIES AND NUCLEAR IS HOW YOU GENERATE CANCER OWE CARBON ELECTRICITY.

THE STATE REQUIRES THAT BY 2040 IN THE LAW.

THAT'S HARD.

HALF OF OUR ELECTRICITY COMES FROM FOSSIL FUELS.

E.V.

AND EXTENSIVE CHARGING NETWORKS ARE HOW WE CUT TRANSPORTATION EMISSIONS BUT THAT'S EXPENSIVE AND HASN'T BEEN IMPLEMENTED.

HEAT PUMPS AND GEOTHERMAL IS HOW WE HEAT THE BUILDINGS.

WE HAVE THE TECHNOLOGY AND WE CAN DO IT BUT UP FRONT STICKER PRICES ARE SHOCKING FOR PEOPLE.

HOW DO YOU GET PEOPLE TO DO IT WHEN FAMILY COURT IS THE ISSUE.

WHEN YOU BACK OFF FROM THE GOAL WHICH HOCHUL IS PROPOSING TO DO, ATTENTION IS GOING TO MOVE AWAY FROM THE BIG CRISIS CLIMATE CHANGE.

THE TRANSITION IS HAPPENING.

WE ARE SEEING IT HAPPEN GLOBALLY RIGHT NOW.

THE QUESTION IS HOW FAST CAN IT HAPPEN.

IN A WAY THAT IS REASONABLE FOR NEW YORKERS AND THAT'S WHAT SHE IS GRAPPLING WITH WITH THESE POLITICS.

>> SARAH, IF EVERY TIME SOMETHING COMES UP CLIMATE GOALS TAKE THE HIT, HOW WILL THIS BE MOVEMENT FORWARD?

>> WELL THAT'S AN EXCELLENT QUESTION, RIGHT.

CLIMATE CHANGE IS A LONG-TERM PROBLEM.

WE HAVE TO BE VIGILANT.

THIS IS NOT AN-- THERE IS NO OVERNIGHT SOLUTIONS HERE AND EVERY TIME PRICES GO UP, OR YOU KNOW, ECONOMIC CONCERNS RISE ON THE AGENDA, IT DOESN'T MEAN WE CAN ABANDON THOSE GOALS.

AND I, YOU KNOW, SOME OF THE PROBLEM I HAVE WITH HOCHUL IS LIKE HOW STUPID THE MESSAGING IS HONESTLY.

LIKE WHY IS SHE DOING THIS?

SHE IS USING REPUBLICAN TALKING POINTS, SAYING ESSENTIALLY, THAT CLIMATE CHANGE IS NOT COMPATIBLE-- THAT IT'S TOO EXPENSIVE.

RIGHT?

THIS IS A BIG BATTLE BETWEEN THE LEFT AND THE RIGHT, WHICH IS THE RIGHT IS SAYING WE HAVE TO GO BACK TO FOSSIL FUELS.

THE LEFT IS SAYING NO, WE CAN TRANSITION TO A CLEAN ENERGY ECONOMY.

AND SHE IS JUST WALKING RIGHT INTO THAT AND THROWING THE DEMOCRATS UNDER THE BUS.

THERE WAS NO REASON TO DO THIS.

THIS IS A LAW.

IT HAS TO BE IMPLEMENTED AT SOME POINT.

>> AT SOME POINT.

>> THE NUMBERS THAT SHE IS CITING ABOUT THE COSTS WERE THE EXTREME NUMBERS PUT OUT BY NYSERRED ARKSZ ON WORST CASE SCENARIO OF THE CAP AND INVEST PROGRAM.

IT WAS NOT-- NO ONE WAS ADVOCATING FOR THAT KIND OF PRICE OF CARBON IN THAT STUDY.

SO THE NUMBERS ARE NOT EVEN-- IT'S NOT EVEN DONE YET, RIGHT?

THE NUMBERS ARE ALL OVER THE PLACE.

>> OKAY, BUT, OTHER NORTHEAST BLUE STATES ARE ALSO ROLLING BACK.

MASSACHUSETTS, RHODE ISLAND, VERMONT.

SO, LUKE, IS THIS A NEW YORK THING OR IS THIS JUST A CLIMATE VERSUS AFFORDABILITY THING?

>> TO STEAL AARON'S RESPONSE, IT'S BOTH.

MY REACTION TO THE COMMENT IS IT'S ELECTION YEAR.

WHY IS SHE TALKING REPUBLICAN BECAUSE SHE DOESN'T WANT TO LOSE.

AND THOUGHT THAT SHE IS GOING TO LOSE.

SHE WANTS TO WIN BIG.

AND THIS IS A WAY WHERE SHE THINKS SHE CAN MAKE UP SOME GROUND AND NEUTRALIZE A CRITICISM OF HER.

MY ISSUE IS THAT SHE DIDN'T FOLLOW THE LAW AND THEN SHE BLAMED PEOPLE WHO SUED HER TO DO SO.

AND SAYING THAT WE NEED TO DO THIS.

TO AARON'S POINT, BEING PRAGMATIC MAKES SENSE HERE.

THE ESTIMATES ARE IF YOU HAVE OIL OR NATURAL GAS AS YOUR HEAT, IF THIS WERE IMPLEMENTED YOUR BILLS WOULD GO UP $4,000 A YEAR.

THAT'S NOT AN INSIGNIFICANT AMOUNT FOR THE REGION.

THE TIMING OF IT AND THE WAY SHE IS DOING IT KIND OF SMELLS LIKE CAMPAIGN POLITICS.

>> YEAH, AND PART OF THE TIMING IS BUT I ALSO THINK THERE IS AN OPTIMIZATION ISSUE HERE.

WE ARE RUNNING INTO A PROBLEM OF TRADE-OFFS.

ON ONE HAND, WE WANT NEW YORK STATE TO GROW.

WE WANT DATA CENTERS, MICRON, ALL THESE BIG THINGS THAT ARE THERE.

BUT WHO HOW DO YOU ALSO SAY THAT WE HAVE TO KEEP UP WITH EMISSION REDUCTION WHILE GROWING THESE MASSIVELY RESOURCE HUNGRY, IF YOU WILL COMPANIES AND CORPORATIONS.

SO I THINK THAT TRADE-OFF IS A LITTLE BIT INTERESTING TO SEE THAT HOW THE TRADE-OFF WOULD WORK OUT.

I'M SKEPTICAL.

LIKE IF YOU WANT TO GROW THAT FAST OR IF YOU WANT TO GROW THIS MASSIVE INFRASTRUCTURE THINGS, HOW ARE YOU AT THE SAME TIME GOING TO KEEP YOUR CLIMATE GOAL, ESPECIALLY WHEN THE FEDERAL GOVERNMENT, AS WE HAVE SEEN, IS WILLING TO PAY A BILLION DOLLARS TO A FRENCH COMPANY TO STOP DOING WIND FARMS.

THAT'S JUST STRANGE, RIGHT.

AND ON TOP OF THAT, I WANT TO ALSO SAY THAT WE ALWAYS GET A LITTLE COMPLACENT, WE WILL BE ZERO GREENHOUSE GAS EMISSIONS BUT GUESS WHAT, WE BUY THINGS FROM AROUND THE WORLD, RIGHT?

THOSE HAVE TREMENDOUS AMOUNTS OF EMISSIONS SO OUR CONSUMPTION IN NEW YORK ALSO CREATES EMISSION EVERYWHERE IN THE WORLD.

SO WE DON'T REALLY TALK ABOUT THAT.

WE ARE GOING TO STOP GREENHOUSE GAS EMISSIONS BUT... DOING THINGS THAT KEEP EMITTING THESE THINGS.

>> THAT'S NOT A REASON NOT TO REDUCE... >> RIGHT.

AND THE TRUTH IS, WE ARE REDUCING EMISSIONS HERE.

IN THE UNITED STATES EMISSIONS HAVE GONE DOWN SINCE 2007.

IT'S A THING WE DON'T OFTEN SAY.

THEY HAVE GONE DOWN BECAUSE WE HAVE MOVED AWAY FROM COAL FIRE POWER.

WE DON'T HAVE COAL FIRE POWER IN NEW YORK RIGHT NOW.

WE CAN MAKE PROGRESS ON THIS, BUT IT'S NOT AN EITHER OR.

IT'S NOT A DICHOTOMY.

IT'S HOW WE DO IT NOT IF WE DO IT.

>> THE IMPLEMENTATION AND TIMING.

WELL NOW IT'S TIME FOR OUR GRADE BOOKS STARTING WITH FS AND YOUR F LUKE.

>> TO THE STATE DEPARTMENT'S NEW TRADE OVER AID INITIATIVE.

DIPLOMATS ARE TRYING TO CONVINCE OTHER COUNTRIES TO REPLACE HUMANITARIAN AID WITH BUSINESS DEALS.

THIS IS MANIPULATIVE AND UNDERMINE'S AMERICAN SOFT POWER.

>> ANIRBAN.

>> TO THE UNTENABLE GENOCIDAL CONDITION IN SUDAN AND THE GENERAL DISREGARD OF MAINSTREAM MEDIA OF THE CONDITION THERE.

THE UNITED NATIONS RECENTLY REPORTED THAT RSF IS CONDUCTED TO PRESENT INDICATIONS POINTING TO GENOCIDE.

THE REPORT WARNS WITHOUT DECISIVE MEASURES TO ADVANCE ACCOUNTABILITY, THE RISK OF FURTHER GENOCIDAL VIOLENCE REMAINS ACUTE.

>> SARAH.

>> WITH SO MANY ISSUES COMPETING FOR OUR ATTENTION, IT IS EASY TO OVERLOOK ONGOING CRISES AROUND THE GLOBE.

ONE OF THE WORST IS INOCCURRING IN MEAN MAR.

MYANMAR SINCE THE MILITARY COUP FIVE YEARS AGO.

AND NOW THE EARTHQUAKE THE TRUMP ADMINISTRATION IT CANCEL AID CONTRACTS IN EARLY 2025 EFFECTIVELY ENDING MOST SUPPORT FOR MYANMAR.

>> THE NEED FOR CLIMATE ACTION IS BECAUSE OF CLIMATE CHAOS, ESPECIALLY OUT WEST.

THE COLORADO APRIL SNOW PACK IN THE MOUNTAINS AT ITS LOWEST LEVEL EVER.

IT IS GOING TO BE A HOT, DRY FIERY SUMMER FOR OF HORRIFIC NEWS FROM THE WEST.

BE PREPARED WE FEED TO TAKE ACTION ON CLIMATE CHANGE.

>> FOR SOME LESS HORRIFIC NEWS STARTING WITH YOUR A LUKE.

>> SPORT.

MY A GOES TO THE NBA PLAYOFFS WHICH BEGAN THIS WEEK.

IT'S THE MOST EXCITING TIME FOR BASKETBALL FANS LIKE MYSELF AS THE WORLD'S BEST PLAYERS COMPETE TO WIN A CHAMPIONSHIP.

>> ANIRBAN.

>> TO NEW YORK STATE BAN ON EMPLOYERS FROM USING CREDIT HISTORY IN HIRING DECISIONS.

STARTING APRIL 18.

SO GOVERNOR GOVERNOR HOCHUL WHO SIGNED THE BILL PREVIOUSLY.

THIS IS HAPPENING IN NEW YORK CITY.

THIS IS A GREAT THING.

YOU KNOW, YOU SHOULDN'T HAVE TO HAVE YOUR CREDIT HISTORY OUT WHEN YOU WANT A JOB.

>> AND NOW WE WILL TURN TO SARAH.

>> MY A GOES TO BRIAN GOLDSTONE'S THERE IS NO PLACE FOR US ABOUT THE WORKING HOMELESS IN THE UNITED STATES.

THE BOOK FOLLOWS FIVE FAMILIES IN ATLANTA WHO STRUGGLE TO FIND AFFORDABLE, SAFE HOUSING DESPITE WORKING MULTIPLE JOBS.

THE POLICIES AND PROGRAMS THAT ARE SUPPOSED TO HELP THEM ARE PLAGUED BY ARCANE RULES AND BURDENSOME PAPERWORK.

IT'S A HEART BREAKING STORY AND GOLDSTONE USES HIS CONSIDERABLE TALENTS TO SHED LIGHT ON THESE HIDDEN BUT IMPORTANT STORIES.

>> FASCINATING.

AND NOW AARON.

>> SO MY A GOES TO THE ARTEMISII ASTRONAUTS AMIDST THE TOUR TURMOIL OF THE IRAN WAR AND ONGOING AFFORDABILITY.

WE HAVE PURE SCIENTIFIC JOY OF FOUR HUMANS WHO TRAVELED FARTHEST FROM OUR PLANET.

THEY RELAYED STRONG FEELINGS OF LOVE FOR EARTH AND ALL OF HUMANITY.

STRONG FEELINGS ALL ASTRONAUT FEELS WHEN THEY VIEW EARTH FROM SPACE.

THEY ADVANCE OUR SCIENTIFIC UNDERSTANDING OF THE MOON.

ONWARDS, MORE OF THAT.

>> MORE OF THAT.

I DO WANT TO COME BACK TO YOUR F, SARAH AND ALSO YOUR F, ANIRBAN AND YOU BOTH HIGHLIGHTED THE LACK OF MEDIA ATTENTION AND THE LACK OF AID.

HOW DO WE SQUARE THAT WITH THE FACT THAT WE ARE LIVING IN THE INFORMATION AGE AND WE ARE NOT HEARING ABOUT GENOCIDES HAPPENING ACROSS THE GLOBE?

>> THAT'S A GREAT QUESTION.

GO AHEAD.

>> I MEAN, YOU KNOW, THIS IS THE THING, LIKE I DON'T KNOW WHY THE MAINSTREAM MEDIA IS FAILING.

MIIAN MAR IS A TERRIBLE SITUATION.

>> "THE NEW YORK TIMES" HAS AN AMAZING STORY ON THIS WITH JOURNALISTS GOING AND THE PHOTOS ARE INCREDIBLE.

THIS IS WHERE I GOT THE STORY.

IT IS NOW IN THE "NEW YORK TIMES."

>> WE SHOULD ALL CHECK IT OUT.

RIGHT NOW WE ARE OUT OF TIME HERE IN THE STUDIO.

WE'D LOVE TO HEAR WHAT YOU HAVE TO SAY ABOUT THE TOPICS WE'VE DISCUSSED.

PLEASE WRITE TO THE ADDRESS ON YOUR SCREEN.

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GO TO WCNY.ORG.

I'M NINA MOORE.

FOR ALL OF US HERE AT IVORY TOWER.

HAVE A GOOD NIGHT.