CONNECT NEW YORK, THE NUMBER OF INCARCERATED NEW YORKERS HAS DROPPED IN RECENT YEARS DUE IN PART TO THE SAFE CHANGES TO CRIMINAL JUSTICE LAWS.

LATE LAST YEAR GOVERNOR CUOMO ANNOUNCED THREE UPSTATE PRISON FACILITIES WOULD BE CLOSING EARLY IN 2021.

COMING UP, WE'LL EXPLORE THE DECISION TO CLOSE THESE FACILITIES, THE ROLE CRIMINAL JUSTICE REFORM HAVE PLAYED AND MUCH MORE.

IT'S ALL NEXT ON CONNECT NEW YORK.

♪ ♪ ♪ ♪ >> WELCOME TO CONNECT NEW YORK, I'M DAN CLARK YOUR HOST TODAY AND EVERY WEEK ON NEW YORK NOW ON YOUR LOCAL PBS STATION.

IT'S NOW BEEN MORE THAN A YEAR SINCE NEW YORK ENACTED A NEW CRIMINAL JUSTICE SYSTEM, LIMITING THE USE OF CASH BAIL AND CHANGING HOW PROSECUTORS AND MEMBERS OF LAW ENFORCEMENT DO THEIR JOBS.

IT'S BEEN AN EXTREMELY DIVISIVE ISSUE WITH SOME IN FULL SUPPORT OF THE CHANGES WHILE OTHERS WANT THEM REVERSED ENTIRELY.

NEW YORK ISN'T THE FIRST STATE TO CHANGE ITS LAWS ON CASH BAIL AND IT'S UNCLEAR WHAT THE LONG-TERM IMPACT OF THE NEW LAWS WILL BE.

SOME SAY THEY'VE LED TO A SPIKE IN CRIME IN AREAS ACROSS THE STATE.

WHILE OTHERS SAY THEY'VE MADE THE SYSTEM FAIRER, PARTICULARLY TO ARE PEOPLE OF COLOR.

AND ON THE OTHER SIDE OF THIS IS THE STATE'S PRISON SYSTEM, WHICH IS LITERALLY GETTING SMALLER.

THE PRISON POPULATION IS SHRINKING FOR SEVERAL REASONS.

AND NOW GOVERNOR CUOMO HAS DECIDED TO CLOSE THREE MORE OF THE STATE'S PRISONS.

PUTTING MORE THAN 1,000 JOBS AT RISK.

TODAY'S PANEL IS HERE TO TALK THROUGH ALL OF IT.

LET'S INTRODUCE THEM.

ASSEMBLYMEMBER DAVID WEPREN CHAIR OF THE CORRECTIONS ME IN THE ASSEMBLY, DEMOCRAT.

ASSEMBLYMEMBER PHILIP PALMESANO REPUBLICAN WHO SITS ON THAT COMMITTEE.

SOFFIYAH ELIJAH THE EXECUTIVE DIRECTOR OF THE ALLIANCE OF FAMILIES FOR JUSTICE, A GROUP THAT REPRESENTS FAMILIES OF INCARCERATED PEOPLE AND MICHAEL POWERS, THE PRESIDENT OF NYSCOPBA, REPRESENTING THE WORKERS AT THE STATE'S PRISONS.

THANK YOU FOR BEING HERE.

I WANT TO START WITH YOU, ASSEMBLYMAN WEPRIN.

WE HAVE THE NEW SYSTEM OF CASH BAIL IN NEW YORK AND CRIMINAL DISCOVERY AND SPEEDY TRIAL THAT WAS PUT IN PLACE BY DEMOCRATS ABOUT TWO YEARS AGO.

WHAT WAS WRONG WITH THE STATE'S CRIMINAL JUSTICE SYSTEM, FROM YOUR PERSPECTIVES THAT DEMOCRATS WANTED TO MAKE THOSE CHANGES?

>> WELL, IN THE CASE OF ELIMINATING CASH BAIL, IT RESULTED FROM, YOU KNOW, PRETRIAL INCARCERATED PEOPLE THAT COULD NOT MAKE BAIL.

AND IT SHOULD NOT, WHETHER SOMEONE IS GUILTY OR NOT, YOU KNOW, NO ONE SHOULD, IN MY OPINION, BE INCARCERATED SIMPLY BECAUSE THEY CANNOT MAKE A MINIMUM AMOUNT OF BAIL.

AND THAT WAS REALLY WHAT LED TO THAT WHOLE MOVEMENT.

THE CASE AT RIKERS ISLAND, HE WAS ACCUSED OF STEALING A BACKPACK.

HE WAIT ADD ROUND AT RIKERS-- WAITED AROUND AT RIKERS FOR A COUPLE OF YEARS BECAUSE OF THE CRIMINAL JUSTICE SYSTEM AND NOT GETTING A TRIAL AND AS A RESULT, HE WAS FINALLY ACQUITTED AND ENDED UP COMMITTING SUICIDE AFTER HIS EXPERIENCE.

AND THAT WAS, YOU KNOW, A TRAGIC SITUATION AND THAT WAS REALLY THE IMPETUS THAT LED TO ELIMINATING CASH BAIL THAT ALMOST ALL THE INDIVIDUALS THAT WERE INCARCERATED AT RIKERS ISLAND IN PARTICULAR DOWNSTATE, WERE PRETRIAL AND HADN'T BEEN CONFLICT CONVICTED OF ANYTHING AND MANY OF THEM BECAUSE OF THE DELAYS IN THE SYSTEM, BECAUSE DISCOVERY LAWS THAT THEY WOULD WAIT A YEAR OR TWO FOR A TRIAL AND BE ACQUITTED OR CONVICTED BUT THEY MAY HAVE DONE THEIR SENTENCE ALREADY BECAUSE THEY COULDN'T GET OUT BECAUSE THEY COULDN'T AFFORD BAIL.

THAT WAS THE IMPETUS THAT LED TO THE CRIMINAL JUSTICE REFORM WHICH I SUPPORTED.

>> A BIG PART OF THIS, AND I SHOULD MENTION YOU ARE AN ATTORNEY.

A BIG PART OF THIS ALSO, A PACKAGE OF THREE ITEMS THAT YOU JUST LAID OUT AND I MENTIONED BEFORE.

CASH BAIL, CRIMINAL DISCOVERY AND THE RIGHT TO A SPEEDY TRIAL.

I WANT TO TOUCH QUICKLY ON JUST CRIMINAL DISCOVERY.

I DON'T THINK THAT WE THEY'D TO TALK ABOUT IT A LOT BUT I THINK IT'S A REALLY IMPORTANT PART OF THE TOPIC.

YOU ARE AN ATTORNEY.

CAN YOU EXPLAIN TO THE AUDIENCE WHAT CRIMINAL DISCOVERY IS, THE PART IT PLAYS AND WHY PEOPLE THOUGHT IT NEEDED TO BE CHANGED AS PART OF THE PACKAGE IN.

>> IT'S ALL RELATED TO HAVING A FAIR TRIAL.

AND YOU KNOW, THE INFORMATION THAT THE PROSECUTORS HAVE TO PROVIDE AND INFORMATION AND DOCUMENTS THAT THE DEFENSE IS ENTITLED IN ORDER TO HAVE A FAIR DEFENSE OF THEIR CLIENTS.

SO THERE WERE A LOT OF DELAYS IN THAT SYSTEM.

A LOT OF MISINFORMATION AND I THINK THAT ALL GOES TO, YOU KNOW, HAVING A FAIR TRIAL, WHICH COULD LEAD TO INCARCERATION OR NOT TO INCARCERATION.

SO IT'S REALLY ALL PART OF THE, YOU KNOW, MOVING THE CRIMINAL JUSTICE SYSTEM ALONG AND NOT DELAYING IT.

>> THANK YOU.

I WANTED TO GET INTO THAT A LITTLE BIT BECAUSE FROM MY PERSPECTIVE, WHEN I WAS COVERING THESE CHANGES A COUPLE YEARS AGO, THE CHANGES TO THE CRIMINAL DISCOVERY WOULD MOST LIKELY LEAD TO A DROP IN CONVICTIONS BECAUSE THERE ARE MOMENTS WHERE THE DISCOVERY HAS TO BE HANDED OVER TO THE DEFENSE SO THEY HAVE A STRONGER DEFENSE SO THERE MAY BE AN ACQUITTAL.

I WANTED TO BRING THAT UP SINCE WE ARE GOING TO TALK ABOUT PRISON CLOSURES IN A BIT.

I WANTED TO TOUCH ON A BIG CRITICISM AND I HATE TO RELITIGATE THIS BUT I FEEL LIKE IT'S ALL PART OF THE CONTEXT OF THE SITUATION.

A BIG CRITICISM OF THE CHANGES OF THE NEW LAWS WAS THAT INITIALLY DEMOCRATS AND THE LEGISLATURE DID NOT MEET WITH PROSECUTORS AND MEMBERS OF LAW ENFORCEMENT TO GO OVER THE CHANGES.

WHEN THEY WERE FIRST NEGOTIATED BACK IN 2019, THERE WERE SOME CHANGES LAST YEAR OBVIOUSLY THAT PROSECUTORS WERE INVOLVED IN.

BUT CAN YOU EXPLAIN WHY DEMOCRATS DIDN'T INVOLVE THEM IN THE FIRST PLACE?

BECAUSE I KNOW THAT'S BEEN A POINT OF CONTENTION FOR MEMBERS OF LAW ENFORCEMENT WHO ARE REALLY AGAINST THESE CHANGES.

>> WELL, I DON'T THINK IT'S A DEMOCRAT OR REPUBLICAN THING.

I THINK WE TRIED TO MEET WITH ALL THE PARTIES, YOU KNOW, I WASN'T DIRECTLY INVOLVED IN ALL THOSE NEGOTIATIONS.

IT WAS MORE A CODES CHAIR AT THE TIME.

BUT MY POSITION HAS ALWAYS BEEN THAT I MEET WITH EVERYONE AND ANYBODY IN THE SYSTEM THAT CONTACTS ME, SO I REALLY HEAR FROM ALL SIDES.

WE DON'T ALWAYS AGREE.

WE DON'T ALWAYS REACH THE SAME CONCLUSION, BUT I KNOW MY COLLEAGUE PHILIP PALMESANO WILL AGREE THAT I HAVE NEVER REFUSED A MEETING AND I HAVE MET WITH EVERYBODY INVOLVED ON BOTH SIDES.

AND I WOULD HOPE MIKE POWERS WOULD AGREE WITH THAT AS WELL, THAT WE CERTAINLY WILL TRY TO MEET WITH EVERYBODY AND IF THEY DIDN'T MEET WITH THE PROSECUTOR, WHOEVER WAS INVOLVED AT THE TIME, IT WAS PROBABLY A MISTAKE, I WOULD THINK BUT CERTAINLY THE IDEA IS TO GET INPUT FROM ALL SIDES.

>> SO DO WE HAVE A SENSE, ASSEMBLYMAN WEPRIN OF HOW THE LAWS ARE WORKING NOW?

DID WE ACCOMPLISH THE GOAL OF MAKING THE CRIMINAL JUSTICE SYSTEM MORE FAIR FOR LOW INCOME PEOPLE AND PEOPLE OF COLOR?

IT'S OBVIOUSLY VERY RECENT SO I DON'T THINK THAT WE CAN SAY WHAT THE LONG-TERM IMPACTS ARE GOING TO BE.

BUT FROM YOUR PERSPECTIVE, ARE THEY WORKING?

>> I THINK THEY ARE.

I THINK THERE WAS A MOVE TO REPEAL THE LAWS BEFORE THEY EVEN WENT INTO EFFECT.

I MEAN YOU HAD A WHOLE BUNCH OF PEOPLE ON THE OTHER SIDE SAYING, UP KNOW, THAT CRIME IS UP AND WHAT HAVE YOU.

BUT I DON'T THINK YOU CAN REALLY BLAME THE BAIL LAWS.

THERE WERE A SERIES OF INCIDENTS THAT OCCURRED AND A COUPLE OF NEWSPAPERS WOULD HIGHLIGHT THEM BUT I DON'T THINK THE DATA WAS IN AND THE STATISTICS WERE IN AND OBVIOUSLY THIS PAST YEAR IS NOT A GOOD EXAMPLE BECAUSE THE PANDEMIC AND THE COURTS WORKING REMOTELY AND THE SITUATION IS NOT, YOU KNOW, THE COURTS OPERATING AT A NORMAL CAPACITY.

SO I THINK THE JURY MAY STILL BE OUT AND THERE WERE SOME ISSUES THAT OCCURRED AND WE DID DO SOME TWEAKS ON SOME OF THE PEOPLE THAT, YOU KNOW, WERE EXCLUDED, YOU KNOW, FROM THE BAIL AND IN THE TWEET AND I SUPPORTED THE TWEET.

SO, YOU KNOW, I THINK OVERALL, I THINK THE IDEA WAS TO, YOU KNOW, THAT PEOPLE ARE INNOCENT UNTIL PROVEN GUILTY AND A LOT OF PEOPLE WERE, YOU KNOW, PRETRIAL AND THEY WEREN'T CONVICTED AND THEY SHOULDN'T BE PREJUDGED WHETHER THEY CAN AFFORD TO BET OUT BASED ON BAIL.

AND THE SAME CRIME COULD BE DONE BY A RICH PERSON AND IF IT'S SAFE TO HAVE THAT RICH PERSON OUT ON THE STREET, IT SHOULD BE THE SAME SAFE TO BE, TO HAVE THE POOR PERSON OUT ON THE STREET.

IT SHOULD ACCOUNT BE BASED ON ECONOMICS OR ON, YOU KNOW, WHETHER SOMEONE COMES FROM A POOR FAMILY OR A RICH FAMILY OR WHETHER SOMEONE IS, YOU KNOW, OF ONE COLOR OR ANOTHER COLOR.

IT SHOULD SURELY BE BASED ON THE FACTS AND YOU KNOW, WHETHER THAT PERSON IS A PUBLIC SAFETY RISK OR WHETHER THAT PERSON IS GOING TO RETURN TO TRIAL.

THAT'S REALLY THE REAL REASON FOR BAIL.

IT SHOULD BE BASED ON WHETHER THEY'RE A FLIGHT RISK AND WHETHER THAT PERSON IS IN DANGER OF NOT RETURNING TO TRIAL.

>> ASSEMBLYMEMBER PALMESANO, I WANT TO BRING YOU IN HERE BECAUSE I KNOW YOU ARE ONE OF THE LAWMAKERS THAT SUPPORTED A FULL REPEAL OF CASH BAIL.

CAN YOU SHARE YOUR PERSPECTIVE ON THAT?

I ASSUME YOU STILL HAVE THAT POSITION.

CAN YOU EXPLAIN WHERE YOU ARE COMING FROM?

>> ABSOLUTELY.

THE WAY THIS STARTED FROM THE GET GO, IT WAS HANDLED POORLY BY THE MAJORITY AND BY THE GOVERNOR.

THE FACT OF THE MATTER IS, THIS WAS DONE AS PART OF THE BUDGET PROCESS.

MARATHON POLICY ISSUES LIKE THIS SHOULD NEVER BE PART OF THE BUDGET PROCESS.

IT GETS WRAPPED UP IN THAT, VOTING FOR A MAJOR BUDGET BILL, NOT ENOUGH TIME TO DISCUSS THIS.

THIS WAS NOT A COLLABORATION WITH OUR LAW ENFORCEMENT, OUR SHERIFFS, DISTRICT ATTORNEYS, IF YOU TALKED TO THEM, THEY WERE NOT CONSULTED WITH THE PROCESS.

YOU WOULD THINK THE STAKEHOLDERS THEY HAVE IN PLACE WOULD HAVE BEEN CONSULTED AND DISCUSSED THIS AS FAR AS THEY'RE CONCERNED.

IT DIDN'T HAPPEN.

AND THE PROBLEM IS WE HAVE SEEN PROBLEMS, ESPECIALLY WHEN YOU TALK ABOUT THE DISCOVERY ISSUES, THE MANDATES ARE PLACED ON OUR LOCAL COUNTIES AND DISTRICT ATTORNEY, VERY COSTLY MANDATES.

THERE IS NOT ENOUGH FUNDING PROVIDED, $40 MILLION IN LAST YEAR'S BUDGET.

NOT ENOUGH MONEY IN THERE TO DO THAT.

AN UNFUNDED MANDATE ON OUR LOCAL GOVERNMENTS, THAT THEY CAN'T DEAL WITH AND ON TOP OF THAT, THE PROPERTY TAX CAP AND THE FUNDING PROMISED WAS NEVER DELIVERED.

AND YOU CONTINUE TO SEE SPIKES IN CRIME HAPPENING.

YOU HAVE SEEN VIDEOS WHERE WE HAD A PRESS CONFERENCE WHERE AN INDIVIDUAL WHO WAS RELEASED AND ENDED UP KILLING PEOPLE.

I MEAN THIS IS HAPPENING OVER AND OVER AGAIN, REPEAT OFFENDERS, PEOPLE GET ARRESTED, RELEASED, GO OUT AND COMMIT MORE CRIMES.

WE'VE SEEN THAT IN MULTIPLE INSTANCES TAKING PLACE SO OUR ARGUMENT WE HAVE BEEN MAKING IS THAT WE SHOULD REPEAL IT, SCRAP IT AND START OVER AGAIN AND CONSULT WITH OUR LAW ENFORCEMENT OR DISTRICT ATTORNEYS WITH THIS PROCESS.

NO ONE IS SAYING WE SHOULD ACCOUNT HAVE REFORMS OF THE PROCESS.

WE CERTAINLY COULD HAVE REFORMED THE PROCESS BUT THE WAY THEY DID THIS AND BROUGHT THROUGH THE SYSTEM AS PART OF THE BUDGET, NOT HAVING CONSULTATION, THE NUMBERS SHOW IT HASN'T WORKED AND THE NUMBER ONE ISSUE IN OUR STATE AS FAR AS WHAT WE HEAR FROM CONSTITUENTS UNTIL COVID CAME AROUND.

THIS WAS THE ONE GETTING THE MOST ATTENTION ACROSS THE STATE AND THE NEWS.

EVERY TIME YOU TURNED ON A NEWSCAST, SOMEONE ELSE WAS ARRESTED FOR A VIOLENT ACT AND THEY WERE RELEASED, ARRESTED, RELEASED.

THE PATTERN WE CONTINUE TO SEE AROUND THE STATE.

PROBABLY DON'T HEAR ABOUT IT NOW WITH THE COVID.

BUT FRANKLY THIS IS A TREND WE CONTINUE TO SEE THROUGHOUT THE YEAR.

CRIME IS UP IN OUR CITIES ACROSS THE STATE.

VIOLENT CRIME IS UP.

ALBANY, I THINK MURDER SPIKED 300%.

SHOOTINGS ARE UP 110%.

SHOOTING VICTIMS 150%.

NEW YORK CITY HOMICIDES INCREASED BY 45%.

SHOOTINGS UP BY 97%.

THIS IS A DANGEROUS TREND WE CONTINUE TO SEE IN OUR COMMUNITY.

DANGEROUS CRIME IS HAPPENING AND THE BAIL REFORM AND DISCOVERY REFORM THAT TOOK PLACE DIDN'T HAPPEN THE RIGHT WAY.

IT SHOULD NEVER HAVE BEEN PART OF THE BUDGET.

IT SHOULD HAVE BEEN CONSULTED WITH OUR LAW ENFORCEMENT AND DISTRICT ATTORNEYS.

IT WASN'T AND THERE WAS NO JUDICIAL DISCRETION ON TOP OF THAT.

THE JUDGE SHOULD HAVE THE RIGHT TO HOLD SOMEONE IF THEY'RE A THREAT TO THE COMMUNITY AND TO THE SOCIETY.

THAT WAS TAKEN AWAY AND THAT WAS ONE OF THE OTHER BIGGER ISSUES WE BROUGHT UP.

WHY WOULD YOU TAKE AWAY THAT JUDICIAL DISCRETION FROM OUR JUDGES WHEN THEY'RE PRESENTED WITH EVIDENCE THAT THIS SHOULDN'T TAKE PLACE.

THAT'S ONE OF THE CONCERNS MYSELF AND A NUMBER OF COLLEAGUES RAIDED.

WE SHOULD HAVE STARTED OVER, SCRAPPED IT AND CONSULTED WITH THE STAKEHOLDERS FOR A SYSTEM BETTER THAN WHAT WE ARE SEEING RIGHT NOW.

>> YOU MIGHT HAVE EXPLAINED IT AND I THINK IT IS YOUR EXPLANATION, FROM YOUR PERSPECTIVE, HOW DO WE BALANCE PUBLIC SAFETY, WHICH IS OBVIOUSLY VITALLY IMPORTANT, WITH TRYING TO MAKE THE CRIMINAL JUSTICE SYSTEM FAIRER?

I THINK WE CAN ALL AGREE THAT IT'S NOT FAIR FOR EVERYONE.

WHERE DO WE FIND THE BALANCE?

>> WELL, THAT'S A CHALLENGE WE HAVE.

AND THAT'S WHY WE NEED TO HAVE A DISCUSSION.

WE SEE WHAT IS GOING ON WITH THE CRIMINAL JUSTICE REFORM PLANS GOING ON IN THE DEPARTMENTS AROUND THE STATE.

DISCUSSIONS GOING ON.

YOU BRING IN THE LAW ENFORCEMENT, YOU BRING IN THE COMMUNITY.

THIS DIDN'T HAPPEN WITH THIS AND THIS SHOULD HAPPEN.

THEY EVEN HAVE THE CHANGES THEY MADE TINKERING AROUND THE EDGES.

WINDOW DRESSING FROM MY PERSPECTIVE.

YES, WE CAN LOOK TO REFORM THE PROCESS.

BUT WHEN YOU SEE VIDEO AFTER VIDEO, SOMEONE, GRAND MOTHER WALKING DOWN THE STREET IN THE CITY WITH A WALKER AND GETTING SHOVED OVER BY SOMEONE WHO HAD A BACKGROUND AND WAS ARREST AND RELEASED.

THAT'S THE TYPE OF THING THAT SHOULDN'T HAPPEN AND IS CONTINUING TO HAPPEN SO WE CAN FIND A BALANCE BUT WHEN YOU BASICALLY SAY THIS IS THE WAY IT'S GOING TO BE, YOU KNOW, MY COLLEAGUES ON THE DEMOCRATIC SIDE OF THE AISLE AND THE GOVERNOR PUSHED THIS AGENDA.

SAID THIS IS THE WAY IT'S GOING TO BE AND LAW ENFORCEMENT, YOU DEAL WITH IT.

DISTRICT ATTORNEYS YOU DEAL WITH IT.

COUNTY PROPERTY TAX YOU DEAL WITH IT.

DOESN'T MATTER HOW MUCH IT COST.

YOU HAVE TO ABSORB THE COST.

THAT'S WHAT HAPPENS FROM ALBANY A LOT.

TIME AND TIME AGAIN POLICIES ARE PUT IN PLACE, MANDATES PUT IN PLACE ON OUR LOCAL COUNTY AND MUNICIPALITIES PUT ON THE PROPERTY TAXPAYER WITHOUT FUNDING TO BACK IT UP.

IT HAPPENED WITH RAISE THE AGE.

TIME AND TIME AGAIN THE COSTS CONTINUE TO BE PASSED ON TO OUR LOCALITIES.

THEY DON'T HAVE THE RESOURCES TO DO IT AND THAT CREATES A DANGEROUS ENVIRONMENT.

IF A CRIME IS THROWN OUT BECAUSE CERTAIN DISCOVERY HAS BEEN PROVIDED IN A CERTAIN TIMEFRAME BECAUSE THEY DON'T HAVE THE RESOURCES OR THE TECHNICAL ISSUES ARE OUT THERE, THAT CREATES A MORE DANGEROUS ENVIRONMENT WHERE PEOPLE CAN BE RELEASED TO THE STREET WHO ARE DANGEROUS.

WE CAN FIND A BALANCE.

BUT TO FIND THAT BALANCE, YOU NEED TO CONSULT WITH THE STAKEHOLDERS, LAW ENFORCEMENT, OUR SHERIFFS, DISTRICT ATTORNEYS.

THAT DID NOT HAPPEN AND STILL HAS NOT HAPPENED.

>> SOPHIA, BEFORE WE MOVE ON TO PRISON CLOSURES WHICH I WANT TO TALK TO YOU PRIMARILY ABOUT, CAN I JUST ASK, THE SAME QUESTION, TO YOU REALLY, HOW DO YOU RESPOND TO THAT?

HOW DO WE FIND THAT BALANCE BETWEEN FAIRNESS IN THE CRIMINAL JUSTICE SYSTEM AND PRESERVING PUBLIC SAFETY FROM YOUR PERSPECTIVE?

IT JUST SEEMS LIKE REGARDLESS OF WHAT WE DO, NOT EVERYBODY IS GOING TO BE HAPPY AND I WONDER WHERE YOU LAND ON THAT?

>> THANK YOU FOR ASKING ME.

I WORK IN THE SYSTEM FOR DECADES AND I THINK ALL WE NEED TO DO IS LOOK AT THE SKYROCKETING NUMBER OF EXONERATIONS FOR PEOPLE WHO ARE WRONGLY CONVICTED AND YOU LOOK IN THE FILE AND TIME AND TIME AGAIN YOU FIND EXCULPATORY INFORMATION THAT WAS WITH HELD BY THE DISTRICT ATTORNEY'S OFFICE AND THAT WAS THE BASIS UPON WHICH SOMEONE WAS FINALLY EXONERATED AFTER SPENDING DECADES BEHIND BARS.

SO THAT EXAMPLE ALONE EXPLAINS THAT THERE IS SOMETHING SEVERELY WRONG WITH THE SYSTEM.

I AGREE WITH ASSEMBLYMAN WEPRIN, WE NEED A FAIR SYSTEM FOR EVERYONE.

IT CANNOT BE THAT BECAUSE SOMEONE IS POOR, THAT THEY'RE HELD BEHIND BARS AND SOMEONE WEALTHY IS NOT HELD BEHIND BARS.

WE HAVE A SITUATION-- WE HAVE A SYSTEM WHERE POOR PEOPLE WHO ARE LIVING ON THE MARGINS, MAY HAVE A NOMINAL PROBLEM, THEY LOSE THEIR JOB WHILE AWAITING TRIAL BECAUSE THEY CAN'T AFFORD TO MAKE BAIL AND THEN THEIR WHOLE FAMILY SUFFERS FROM THAT SITUATION, WHERE SOMEONE WHO IS WEALTHY, DOESN'T SUFFER THE CIRCUMSTANCES.

IN A SYSTEM WHERE WE SAY EVERYONE IS INNOCENT UNTIL PROVEN GUILTY, SO I AGREE WE NEED TO FIND WAYS TO MAKE THE SYSTEM MORE FAIR.

TAKING AWAY BAIL REFORM, ELIMINATING THE DISCOVERY RULES AND ELIMINATING AN EFFORT TO PROVIDE SPEEDY TRIALS SO PEOPLE ARE NOT LANGUISHING BEHIND BARS, IS NOT THE WAY TO DO IT.

I WOULD SUGGEST TO PEOPLE, IF YOU THINK THE SYSTEM IS WORKING WELL, THEN GIVE UP YOUR LIBERTY.

SIT ON RIKERS ISLAND FOR A COUPLE OF YEARS WHILE YOU ARE WAITING FOR SOMEONE TO FINALLY AGREE THAT YOU ARE INNOCENT.

SIT IN THE SHOES OF KHALIF'S FAMILY AND GET BACK TO ME AND LET ME KNOW IF YOU THINK THE SYSTEM IS FAIR.

>> THAT'S A GOOD SEGUE.

WE'LL TURN MORE TO THE STATE'S PRISON CLOSURES IN A MOMENT.

IN LATE DECEMBER, THE STATE ANNOUNCED THREE UPSTATE PRISONS WOULD CLOSE BY THE END OF MARCH.

GOVERNOR CUOMO HAS BEEN AT THE FOREFRONT OF THE PUSH FOR CRIMINAL JUSTICE REFORM INCLUDING OVERSEEING A 39% REDUCTION OF THE STATE'S PRISON POPULATION OVER THE LAST DECADE.

ONE OF THE PRISONS CLOSING NEXT MONTH, LOCATED AN HOUR SOUTH OF BUFFALO.

THE CONNECT NEW YORK TEAM TRAVELED OUT TO WESTERN NEW YORK TO MEET WITH THOSE WHO RAISE CONCERNS OVER THE LOOMING CLOSURE WHICH HASN'T HAPPENED YET.

AND TO LEARN FROM ONE ORGANIZATION WHO IS READY TO WELCOME ANYONE LEAVING THE PRISON SYSTEM AND AIMING TO DIMINISH THE RATE OF RECIDIVISM WHICH WE'LL GET INTO RIGHT AFTER THIS.

>> I WAS LOCKED UP IN THERE IN 2017.

I WAS RE-ELECTED IN 2019 AND I'M RUNNING AGAIN UNOPPOSED.

IT IS JUST A VERY SMALL TOWN, GENUINE, NICE MENTALITY.

IT'S A BEAUTIFUL VILLAGE.

>> THERE IS A THOUSAND INMATES THERE.

THERE ARE OVER 500 CORRECTIONAL OFFICERS.

THERE IS ALSO OVER 300 CIVILIAN EMPLOYEES THERE.

AND THESE ARE FAMILIES THAT HAVE LIVED HERE FOR GENERATIONS.

FOUR DAYS BEFORE CHRISTMAS, WE GET AN ANNOUNCEMENT THAT ONE OF OUR LARGEST EMPLOYERS IN THE AREA IS BEING CLOSED DOWN BY DOCCS AND THE GOVERNOR.

IT HIT US REALLY HARD.

SHOCKED WOULD BE A GOOD WAY TO PHRASE THE REACTION.

>> THE TIMING WAS TERRIBLE.

TO MAKE THE ANNOUNCEMENT DURING CHRISTMAS WEEK AND DO THIS TO ALL OF THE FAMILIES.

FUTURES ARE UNCERTAIN, NOT KNOWING WHAT THEY'RE GOING TO DO.

I THINK THE ADMINISTRATION COULD HAVE BEEN MUCH MORE SENSITIVE TO THAT.

WE DO KNOW THAT THE BUDGET, OF WHICH I VOTED AGAINST, AUTHORIZED THE CLOSING UP TO THREE PRISONS.

AND THE ADMINISTRATION PROFESSES TO HAVE SOME SORT OF PROCESS IN GOING THROUGH THAT.

BUT IT'S NOT TRANSPARENT IN THE SENSE THAT WE DON'T SEE THOSE NUMBERS.

>> I DON'T SEE WHERE YOU ARE GOING TO ARRIVE AT $89 MILLION COST SAVINGS FROM CLOSING THREE FACILITIES IF YOU ARE NOT CUTTING PERSONNEL.

ANYONE WHO HAS MANAGED TO BUDGET IN ANY WAY KNOWS THE BIGGEST PIECE OF YOUR EXPENDITURE PIE IS YOUR PERSONNEL, YOUR STAFF.

YOU DON'T SAVE MONEY WITHOUT CUTTING PERSONNEL.

SO I DON'T BELIEVE THAT THERE WON'T BE JOB LOSSES.

SOME PEOPLE ARE GOING TO LOSE THEIR JOBS, SOME PEOPLE ARE GOING TO BE FORCED INTO EARLY RETIREMENT.

MANY ARE GOING TO BE TRANSFERRED INTO OTHER DOCCS FACILITIES THROUGHOUT THE STATE.

AND WHAT A SHAME THAT WILL BE.

>> ALL OF US IN SOCIETY, BEFORE A SMALL PRISON POPULATION, FOR THE RIGHT REASONS, BECAUSE THAT WOULD THEN IMPLY AT THAT TIME WE HAVE MORE LAW ALLIEDING CITIZENS AND THAT THOSE WHO HAVE COMMITTED CRIMES CAN AND ARE BEING REHABILITATED.

BUT THE POLICIES THAT WE SEE NOW REFORMS OF THE ROCKEFELLER DRUG LAWS.

WE HAVE SEEN CHANGES IN THE PAROLE PROCESS.

THAT'S NOT THE RIGHT ANSWER, TO SPRING THEM WITHOUT CONSIDERING THE REST OF THE 19 MILLION PEOPLE IN THE STATE.

>> AS AN ORGANIZATION, I WOULD SAY THAT WE DEFINITELY SUPPORT THE DOWNSIZING OF THE PRISON INDUSTRIAL COMPLEX, NOT JUST ON A STATE LEVEL, BUT CERTAINLY ON A NATIONAL LEVEL.

I'M CINDY, THE EXECUTIVE DIRECTOR OF BUFFALO BASED NON-PROFIT THAT WORKS WITH FOLKS RETURNING FROM INCARCERATION.

YOU KNOW TODAY THEY'RE 2.5 MILLION INDIVIDUALS THAT ARE INCARCERATED NATIONALLY.

AND OUTSIDE OF THAT, 95% OF THE PEOPLE THAT HAVE THAT TOUCH WITH THE JUSTICE SYSTEM FIND THEMSELVES INCARCERATED WILL RETURN BACK TO OUR COMMUNITIES.

KNOWING THAT NUMBER AND THE FACT THAT THERE ARE 2.5 MILLION CURRENTLY INCARCERATED ON TOP OF THE 4.5 MILLION ESTIMATED NATIONALLY THAT ARE UNDER SOME SORT OF SUPERVISION, THERE IS AN OVERWHELMING NEED TO MEET AN INDIVIDUAL BOTH PRE-AND POST RELEASE AND PROVIDE THEM WITH SERVICES NECESSARY FOR THEM TO BE SUCCESSFUL INTEGRATED BACK INTO THE COMMUNITY.

>> MY NAME IS EDDIE.

2016, DIFFICULT THREE YEARS.

I WAS GIVEN A FLAT BID FOR WEAPONS POSSESSION WHICH I WAS LOOKING AT THREE AND A HALF TO 15 YEARS.

I NEEDED HELP BECAUSE IF YOU DIDN'T NEED HELP, YOU WOULDN'T GO TO JAIL.

COME OUT AND I COME THROUGH PEACE.

>> WE WORK WITH PEOPLE PRERELEASE AND THEN WE HELP THEM POST RELEASE.

THE BARRIERS ARE EVERY DAY.

>> BELIEVE IT OR NOT, PEOPLE CAN MAKE MISTAKES AND THEN BE REHABILITATED BY A PROGRAMMATIC SYSTEM LIKE THE CORRECTIONAL THAT HELPS YOU ADMIT TO YOUR CRIME, RECONCILE WHAT YOU DID, TRY TO GET BACK ON TRACK.

THERE ARE ALSO SOME, BECAUSE THEIR PROGRAMS WILL BE CUT SHORT, THAT WILL NOT BE ABLE TO COMPLETE THAT REALLIATION AND-- REHABILITATION AND WILL BE TRANSFERRED TO A FACILITY THAT DOESN'T CONTINUE THE REHABILITATION OR B: RELEASED OUT INTO THE COMMUNITY.

>> IT SADDENS ME AT THAT TIME WE ARE STILL PLAGUED BY INJUSTICE, INIQUITIES INEQUITIES.

IT DOESN'T MATTER IF YOU ARE THE CORRECTIONAL INSTITUTION, THERE ARE FUNDAMENTAL QUALITY OF LIFE STANDARDS THAT SHOULD BE UNIVERSALLY HELD TO AND IT'S NOT THERE.

>> WE WERE ONE OF THE TOP REHABILITATION PROGRAMMATIC CENTERS THAT THERE IS.

SO MAKING A DECISION TO CLOSE THAT WHEN IT DID PROVIDE STANDARDIZATION.

IT DID PROVIDE RELIABLE AND VALID PROGRAMS THAT GAVE PEOPLE A CHANCE TO REHABILITATE, I THINK IS SENSELESS.

>> I ENROLLED IN A FOUR MONTH PROGRAM THERE.

I STAYED THERE FOUR MONTHS AND THEN THEY ASKED ME ABOUT THE PROGRAM OVER AT HOPE HOUSE, WHICH IS A TWO YEAR PROGRAM.

THEY RECOMMENDED, IT SOUNDED LIKE SOMETHING GOOD.

>> HIS FIRST STEP WAS WHERE WE ARE PROVIDE YOU WITH THE MEALS.

WE PROVIDE YOU WITH AROUND THE CLOCK STAFFING.

WE'VE GOT ACCESS TO CASE MANAGEMENT, COMPUTER RESOURCES, A PLETHORA OF STUFF INSIDE AND CONNECTING TO THE COMMUNITY.

AND EDDIE SEIZED EVERY OPPORTUNITY.

>> THEY HELP YOU CONTINUE TO DO POSITIVE THINGS.

I'VE ALWAYS WANTED TO BE A TRUCK DRIVER.

DOO UNDERGRADUATE THIS PANDEMIC, I-- DURING THIS PANDEMIC I WENT TO SCHOOL, I GOT MY CLASS CDL LICENSE AND I HAVE BEEN WORKING EVER SINCE AND I LOVE MY JOB BECAUSE I GET PAID $17 AND SOME CHANGE AN HOUR TO RIDE AROUND.

THIS IS WHAT I LOVE.

>> BECAUSE IT'S A PILOT PROGRAM.

WE ARE FINALLY ABLE TO IDENTIFY WHAT THOSE BARRIERS ARE.

OFTEN TIMES IT'S BECAUSE OUR FOLKS ARE GOING THROUGH THE SAME CYCLE, THE SAME SYSTEM AND GOING BACK INTO THE SAME COMMUNITY THAT THEY LEFT SO NOTHING REALLY CHANGES, SO IT'S INEVITABLE THAT OUR CLIENTS WILL END UP BACK IN JAIL.

OUR TRANSITION TRY TO MAKE YOUR TRANSITION AS EASY AS POSSIBLE.

>> THESE FACILITIES ARE SCHEDULED TO CLOSE THIS AT THE END OF MARCH.

THEY'RE SO FOCUSED ON CLOSING PRISONS AND GETTING PEOPLE OUT OF JAIL.

>> HOW DOES THE HOLLYWOOD THEATER SYMBOLIZE GOWANDA?

THE THEATER ACTUALLY BURNED IN 1925.

WHAT USED TO BE FALLING IN ON ITSELF, CONDEMNED, IS NOW ONE OF THE MOST BEAUTIFUL SITES YOU WILL SEE IN ANY TOWN.

WE ARE A RESILIENT HARD TO BEAT DOWN GROUP OF PEOPLE.

>> I'M 59 YEARS OLD.

BROUGHT ALL MY OWN CLOTHES.

CAN'T BEAT THIS.

>> ALL RIGHT, LETS TURN NOW TO MIKE POWERS FROM NYSCOPBA.

I WANT TO TALK TO YOU FIRST BECAUSE YOU OBVIOUSLY REPRESENT CORRECTION OFFICERS THAT WILL HAVE TO RELOCATE OR FIND ANOTHER KNOB.

HOW IS IT GOING?

WHAT ARE YOU HEARING FROM PEOPLE?

THE STATE HAS OFFERED TO RELOCATE THESE OFFICERS AND STAFF.

BUT I IMAGINE THAT'S NOT AN EASY DECISION FOR ANY FAMILY.

>> NO, OF COURSE NOT AND I APPRECIATE THE OFFER TO SIT IN TODAY.

IT'S A VERY DIFFICULT SITUATION FOR OUR MEMBERSHIP.

(INAUDIBLE) AND IN QUICK TERMS HERE, AN INDIVIDUAL AT GOWANDA WHO HAD FAMILY UPROOTED AND MOVED DUE TO THE CLOSING OF LIVINGSTON A YEAR AGO AND NOW HE FOUND HIMSELF AT GOWANDA AND ONCE AGAIN HAS TO UPROOT AND MOVE HIS FAMILY.

I THINK THE BIGGEST FACTOR GOING FORWARD IS WE KNEW SOMETHING WAS COMING IN THE BUDGET.

THAT WAS WHAT IT WAS A YEAR AGO.

BUT TO HAVE IT LEVIED IN THE FASHION THAT IT WAS LEVIED THIS PARTICULAR YEAR, IN MY OPINION, THEY JUST KICKED THE CAN DOWN THE ROAD ALL SUMMER LONG DURING THE COVID PANDEMIC, RECOGNIZING THAT THE BUDGET HAD TO HAVE THESE FACILITIES MARKED.

I THINK IT WAS A SHORT SIGHTED KNEE JERK RELAX ACTION THAT CLOSED A COUPLE OF FACILITIES AND THE FISCAL RESTRAINTS AND THE TIMELINESS OF THE BUDGET AND I DON'T THINK AS ASSEMBLYMAN PALMESANO MADE MENTION IT WAS NOT A WELL THOUGHT OUT PROCESS.

GOWANDA BEING DOWN AND WATERTOWN BEING ANOTHER ARE VITAL PROPONENTS TO THEIR GEOGRAPHIC FACILITIES-- GEOGRAPHICALLY IN THE STATE AS FAR AS DEPARTMENTAL OPERATIONS AND THEY PLAY VITAL ROLES AND MUCH OF WHAT WAS DONE AND IT JUST SEEMED TO BE A BIT OF A KNEE JERK REACTION.

IT'S A VERY DIFFICULT TASK FOR OUR MEMBERS, FOR ANY MEMBER OF ANY ENTITY.

AS MAYOR SMITH MENTIONED, THERE ARE 800 EMPLOYEES AT GOWANDA ALONE THAT ARE AFFECTED BY THIS AND THAT THAT TURNS-- THAT CAN POTENTIALLY TURN A HOUSEHOLD UPSIDE DOWN.

AND MOVING FORWARD WITH THAT, IT'S BEEN A VERY DIFFICULT TASK AND A VERY DIFFICULT MEASURE ON OUR BEHALF.

FORTUNATELY WE ARE NOT LOSING ANY STAFF DUE TO THIS.

THERE WILL BE NO LAYOFF FROM SECURITY STAFF OR CIVILIAN STAFF AND THE DEPARTMENT WORKED WELL MOVING FORWARD.

BUT IT'S A VERY DIFFICULT ISSUE FOR US AND OUR MEMBERS BASED OFF THE PENDING CLOSURES AND SHORT TIMEFRAME IN WHICH THEY MAY HAVE TO UPROOT THEIR FAMILY AND MOVE ABOUT THE STATE.

>> ASIDE FROM THE JOBS AFFECTED, IT OCCURRED TO ME, YOU MAY HAVE A DIFFERENT POSITION WHY TO KEEP THE PRISONS OPEN.

THAT'S THE BIG QUESTION FOR PEOPLE OUTSIDE OF YOUR MEMBERSHIP AND OWFT SIDE OF THESE JOBS IS IF THE PRISON POPULATION IS SHRINKING THEN WHY NOT CONSOLIDATE OUR PRISONS?

CAN YOU EXPLAIN YOUR PERSPECTIVE ON THAT?

>> ASSEMBLYMAN WEPRIN AND PALMESANO AND SOFFIYAH ELIJAH AS WELL ARE PROBABLY FAMILIAR WITH THE CONCERNS AND POSITIONS.

I THINK AS ASSEMBLYMAN PALMESANO MENTIONED, THERE IS NO CONVERSATION WITH STAKEHOLDERS.

AND WITH THAT BEING SAID, YOU KNOW, GOING FORWARD, WE RECOGNIZE THAT DEPARTMENT THAT WE HAVE AND THE REHABILITATION PROCESS.

NOW KEEP IN MIND, WE ARE NOT POLICY MAKERS.

GOING FORWARD, MUCH OF WHAT OUR CONCERN IS, WITH THE DECREASING INMATE POPULATION, WE ARE STILL VERY MUCH SEEING A VERY LARGE AMOUNT OF VIOLENCE IN THESE FACILITIES.

INMATE ON INMATE ASSAULTS, SINCE 2016, WITH THE EVER DECREASING INMATE POPULATION, AND I'M PREACHING TO THE CHOIR, BUT WITH THAT BEING SAID, THOSE NUMBERS CONTINUE TO RISE.

AND WHAT IS NOT BEING DISCUSSED IN OUR POSITION IS THE REAL REFORM.

WHERE IS THE REAL REFORM?

WHERE DO YOU GET BY WAREHOUSING OR STOCKPILING, I SHOULD SAY, HUMAN INDIVIDUALS IN A FORMAT FOR REHABILITATION WHEN YOU HAVE THE NEEDS AND NECESSITIES TO BE ABLE TO (INAUDIBLE) THE REHABILITATION PROCESS?

YOU CAN PROPERLY ADEQUATELY STAFF, FROM OUR POSITION, A SMALLER DORMITORY OR CELL BLOCK TYPE SETTING BY INCREASING THE REHABILITATION PROCESS FOR THESE INDIVIDUALS TO ENTER INTO SOCIETY AND CREATE A SAFER WORK ENVIRONMENT AND AN EVER INCREASING VIOLENT ATMOSPHERE THAT WE HAVE.

THE STATISTICS, SINCE 2016, TO CURRENT DATE, WITH A SIGNIFICANT 39 ALMOST 40 QUITE FRANKLY, IT IS OVER 40 MERS 40% INMATE POPULATION SINCE 2016, DECREASING, BUT THE VIOLENCE IS CONTINUING.

THE REHABILITATION MODEL IS NOT BEING MET WHEN IN ALL ACTUALITY, YOU CAN HAVE A SAFER ENVIRONMENT INSIDE A CORRECTIONAL FACILITY WITH LESSER INMATES IN A CERTAIN AREA, BETTER SUPERVISION FOR THE SECURITY STAFF INSTEAD OF CLOSING FACILITIES AND MOVING THEM ABOUT.

THERE IS A MORE HUMANE ASPECT OF REHABILITATION THAT CAN BE ADMINISTERED HERE AND THAT'S BEING SHUTTERED OVER FISCAL CONSTRAINTS.

>> SOFFIYAH ELIJAH, WHAT DO YOU THINK ABOUT THAT, MAKE MIKE MAKES A REALLY GOOD POINT, ESPECIALLY WHEN YOU ARE LOOKING AT A GLOBAL PANDEMIC, MAYBE HAVING MORE PRISONS WITH LESS DENSE POPULATIONS MIGHT BE A PLUS BUT I'M HAPPY TO HEAR YOUR PERSPECTIVE.

>> I THOUGHT IT WAS VERY INTERESTING WHEN MIKE REFERENCED THE IMPORTANCE OF TALKING TO THE STAKEHOLDERS.

PART OF THE PROBLEM IN HOW POLICIES ARE BEING IMPLEMENTED IS THAT WE PRIORITIZE SOME STAKEHOLDERS AND IGNORE OTHERS.

SO THE COMMUNITIES FROM WHICH THE MAJORITY OF THE PRISON POPULATION COMES, ARE NOT BEING CONSIDERED IN ANY OF THESE DISCUSSIONS.

EVEN IF YOU LOOK AT WHO IS ON THE PANEL.

THIS PANEL TONIGHT YOU DON'T FIND ANY FORMERLY INCARCERATED PEOPLE IN THIS DISCUSSION.

WHEN WE TALK ABOUT THE REHABILITATION THAT SUPPOSEDLY IS HAPPENING IN THE FACILITIES, IF IT WAS REHABILITATION HAPPENING, WE WOULDN'T HAVE THE CONCERN ABOUT RECIDIVISM, OKAY?

I ALSO WANT TO ADDRESS THE CONCERN ABOUT THE NUMBERS OF VIOLENT INCIDENTS.

NUMBERS OF VIOLENT INCIDENTS AND WHO PROVIDES THE STATISTICS ARE ALL CONTROLLED BY THE SECURITY STAFF ADMINISTRATION.

WE KNOW-- LAW ENFORCEMENT REPORTS THAT CRIME IN NEW YORK STATE IS DOWN BY 40% THOSE ARE IN THE NUMBERS PROVIDED BY ADVOCATES.

THOSE ARE NUMBERS PROVIDED BY LAW ENFORCEMENT.

THE PRISON POPULATION IN NEW YORK STATE HAS DECREASED FROM 72,000 TO JUST OVER 33,000 THAT'S A HUGE DECREASE.

MORE THAN 50%.

I'M SURE EVERYBODY CAN DO THE MATH.

SO IF THAT IS THE CASE, THEN WE DON'T NEED AS MANY PRISONS.

WE ARE NOT GOING TO ADDRESS WHATEVER THE CONCERNS ARE ABOUT THE POPULATION BY KEEPING PRISONS OPEN.

THE REASON THERE IS A CONCERN ABOUT KEEPING PRISONS OPEN IS BECAUSE THEY PROVIDE AN ECONOMIC BASE FOR SOME COMMUNITIES WHEN WE ARE FACING ECONOMIC DEVASTATION IN THE COMMUNITIES FROM WHICH THE INCARCERATED POPULATION COMES FROM.

IF WE REDISTRIBUTED THE WEALTH AND THE RESOURCES OF THIS STATE SO THAT THE COMMUNITIES THAT ARE MOST DEVASTATED BY INCARCERATION WERE ABLE TO PROVIDE OPPORTUNITIES FOR THE YOUNG PEOPLE IN THOSE COMMUNITIES TO REALIZE THEIR DREAMS IN THE SAME WAY THAT MORE AFFLUENT COMMUNITIES, THE YOUNG PEOPLE IN THOSE COMMUNITIES ARE ABLE TO REALIZE THEIR DREAMS THEN WE WOULD BE TALKING ABOUT REAL FAIRNESS.

COULD YOU CONTINUE TO SHRINK THE PRISON POPULATION.

WE CAN'T BUILD AN INDUSTRY ON MISERY.

WE HAVE TO BE MORE FAIR AND I THINK SOME OF THE OTHER REFORMS WE WERE TALKING ABOUT IN AN EARLIER FOR EXAMPLEMENT ARE A SIGNIFICANT EFFORT TO GET TO THAT FAIRNESS AND I CERTAINLY CAN'T GET BEHIND POLICIES THAT PROVIDE AN ECONOMIC BASE FOR ONE COMMUNITY BASED ON THE MISERY OF ANOTHER COMMUNITY.

I WANT TO CONTINUE WITH THE TOPIC OF RECIDIVISM BUT I WANT TO ASK MIKE ABOUT THAT ARGUMENT.

SOME PEOPLE ARGUE THAT WE SHOULDN'T KEEP PRISONS OPEN FOR THE SAKE OF PROVIDING JOBS TO COMMUNITIES.

WHAT DO YOU THINK ABOUT THAT?

>> YOU KNOW WHAT?

WELL, LISTEN, THE PRISON POPULATION BOOMED IN THE LATE 80s BECAUSE OF THE ROCKEFELLER DRUG LAWS AND SOME OF THE LAWS ON THE BOOKS AT THE TIME.

THAT'S ALL TO THE WAYSIDE NOW.

I'M NOT GOING TO DISPUTE NUMBERS HERE BUT AT THE END OF THE DAY, IT'S ABOUT THE REHABILITATION PROCESS WITH THAT BEING SAID, WE PROVIDE CARE, CUSTODY AND CONTROL.

THERE ARE MANY COMMUNITIES ONE OF WHICH I ORIGINATE FROM WHEN THE STATE WAS BUILDING PRISONS, COULDN'T FIND LOCALES TO BE ABLE TO HAVE THEM.

COMMUNITIES CAME FORWARD WITH THEM.

I'M NOT GOING TO ARGUE THESE ARE NOT LIVING WAGE JOBS.

THEY ARE THROUGHOUT THE STATE O STATE OF NEW YORK.

THEY'RE GOOD PAYING JOBS WITH BENEFITS.

THEY'RE VERY STRESSFUL JOBS WITH BENEFITS AND WHEN THE STATE NEEDED THEM COMMUNITIES STEPPED UP.

AND PROVIDED THE ATMOSPHERE FOR THIS REHABILITATION MODEL.

I'M NOT SUGGESTING THAT, YOU KNOW, THE NUMBERS ARE WHAT THEY ARE.

NUMBERS DON'T LIE.

AT THE END OF THE DAY, THE INMATE POPULATION, DUE TO CRIMINAL JUSTICE REFORMS AND SOME OF THE OTHER ISSUES THAT ARE OUT THERE, IT'S NOT A JOBS MODEL PROGRAM.

WE DON'T SUGGEST THAT IT IS.

WE ARE LAW ENFORCEMENT OFFICERS.

WE PROVIDE CARE, CUSTODY AND CONTROL TO COMMUNITIES AND TO THE STATE AND THE PEOPLE TO KEEP THEM SAFE.

AS FAR AS AT THE ASPECT OF A JOBS PROGRAM, LET'S FACE IT.

THERE ARE BAD PEOPLE OUT THERE.

THERE IS NO WAY AROUND IT.

THERE IS.

AND STATISTICS SHOW IT AND THE NUMBERS ARE, YOU KNOW, VIOLENT CRIME IS SIGNIFICANTLY HIGHER IN A LARGER METROPOLITAN AREA THROUGHOUT THE STATE OF NEW YORK.

IF YOU GO FROM ONE THRU-WAY TO THE END, AND IT'S EVIDENT IN EVERY LARGE METROPOLITAN AREA.

I'M NOT SUGGESTING-- THAT'S NOT OUR JOB.

OUR JOB IS TO PROVIDE CARE, CUSTODY AND CONTROL AND WE DO THAT FOR THE COMMUNITY AND FOR THE STATE OF NEW YORK AND FOR THE SAFETY OF THE STATE OF NEW YORK.

REGARDLESS WHETHER IT'S A CHUBT THAT CAN SUSTAIN IT OR NOT.

AT THE END OF THE DAY, CRIME EXISTS AND IT'S EVIDENT OUT THERE.

GO BACK TO WHAT I SAID EARLIER WHAT IS THE GAME OF CLOSING PRISONS WHEN YOU CAN BRING ABOUT EFFECTIVELY A GOOD REHABILITATION PROGRAM IN A LESS DENSE AREA TO PROMOTE AND ALLOW THESE INDIVIDUALS BACK INTO THE COMMUNITY AND BE PROTECTIVE MEMBERS OF SOCIETY.

>> ASSEMBLYMAN WEPRIN, I WANT TO BRING NEW QUICK BECAUSE MIKE BRINGS UP A GOOD POINT.

WE HAVE PEOPLE WHO COMMIT CRIMES.

THERE ARE SENTENCES ATTACHED TO THE CRIMES.

AS SOMEBODY WHO CHAIRS THE CORRECTIONS COMMITTEE AND HAS BEEN INVOLVED IN THESE ISSUES WHERE DO WE PUT THE LINE IN TERMS OF, YOU KNOW EASING SENTENCES, DECRIMINALIZING CERTAIN THINGS BUT PRESERVING PUBLIC SAFETY AND PROMOTING REHABILITATION FOR PEOPLE WHO COMMIT SERIOUS CRIMES I THINK SOME PEOPLE GET CONCERNED SOMETIMES THAT SHRINKING THE PRISON POPULATION, THERE WILL BE PEOPLE THAT DO COMMIT MORE CRIMES THAT COME OUT.

WHERE DO WE PUT THAT LINE?

>> I DON'T THINK SLEEPING THE PRISON POPULATION AFFECTS OTHERS COMMITTING CRIME.

THE REASON THE POPULATION IN THE FACILITIES HAVE GONE DOWN THROUGHOUT THE STATE OF NEW YORK IS BECAUSE STATISTICS SHOW THERE ARE LESS CRIMES BEING COMMITTED AND A LOT OF IT HAD TO DO WITH THE ROCKEFELLER DRUG LAWS AS MIKE POWERS REFERENCED, WHERE THOSE LAWS-- SO MANY PEOPLE WERE BEING INCARCERATED BECAUSE OF THOSE DRUG LAWS, WHICH WERE YOU KNOW, OVERTURNED A NUMBER OF YEARS AGO AND REALLY DIDN'T REFLECT, YOU KNOW, REHABILITATION.

WE ALSO HAVE A LOT OF PEOPLE IN STATE FACILITIES THAT ARE SUFFERING FROM MENTAL ILLNESS AND ARE THERE BECAUSE THEY'RE MENTALLY ILL AND THEY'RE NOT GETTING THE SERVICES THEY NEED.

SO I HAVE BEEN A STRONG ADVOCATE FOR ALTERNATIVES TO INCARCERATION WHEN THERE ARE INDIVIDUALS THAT CAN GET THE SERVICES THEY NEED, THE MENTAL HEALTH FACILITIES, DRUG REHABILITATION AND OTHER THINGS AND MANY OF THOSE INDIVIDUALS PROBABLY SHOULD NOT BE INCARCERATED WHERE THEY COULD BE BETTER SERVED BY EVERYBODY IN AIRPORT FACILITIES.

OBVIOUSLY WE STILL NEED INCARCERATION FOR THOSE THAT ARE DANGEROUS TO VOIGHT BUT WE SOCIETY BUT WE REALLY WANT TO MAKE SOME YOU ARE THAT EVERYBODY GETS THE SERVICES THAT THEY REALLY NEED I HAVE BEEN A STRONG ADVOCATE FOR OPPORTUNITIES WHILE PEOPLE ARE INCARCERATED.

OPPORTUNITIES FOR EDUCATION.

I HAVE BEEN PUSHING TO EXPAND THE AMOUNT OF COLLEGES AND UNIVERSITIES THAT PARTICIPATE IN PROGRAMS AND NOW AT THE FEDERAL LEVEL THEY HAVE ALLOWED PELL FUNDING FOR INCARCERATED INDIVIDUALS AND THAT WILL MAKE IT EASIER FOR US TO EXPAND A LOT OF THESE FACILITIES AND EDUCATION GOES A LONG WAY TO CHANGING INDIVIDUALS AND TO REALLY MAKING THEM SO MUCH MORE EQUIPPED TO ENTER SOCIETY BECAUSE A LOT OF THESE INCARCERATED INDIVIDUALS STARTED OUT IN THE SYSTEM WHEN THEY WERE VERY YOUNG LIKE IN THE CASE OF TEENAGERS NOW 17, 18, RAISE THE AGE IS OVER 18.

BUT CERTAINLY MANY OF THEM STARTED BEFORE 18 AND THEY'RE NOT THE SAME INDIVIDUALS THEY WERE WHEN THEY COMMITTED THEIR CRIME, WERE CONVICTED AND SENTENCED.

SO EDUCATIONAL OPPORTUNITIES AND VOCATIONAL PROGRAMS CHANGE INDIVIDUALS.

THEY REALLY MAKE THEM DIFFERENT PEOPLE THAN THEY WERE WHEN THEY CAME IN SO I THINK THE KEY WE SHOULD TRY TO HAVE MORE FACILITIES THAT HAVE THE SERVICES THAT PEOPLE NEED, WHETHER THEY BE, YOU KNOW, MENTAL HEALTH SERVICES OR DRUG REHABILITATION SERVICES.

SO I THINK THAT'S KIND OF THE KEY.

BUT IN THE CASE OF CLOSING FACILITIES, YOU KNOW, THE NUMBERS ARE THE NUMBERS.

I THINK IT'S TERRIFIC THAT THE STATE IS ABLE TO WORK IT OUT WHERE WE ARE NOT GOING TO SEE A LOSS OF CORRECTION OFFICERS JOBS OR OTHER CORRECTION EMPLOYEES, HOPEFULLY.

AT LEAST AT THIS STAGE AND THAT WAS A QUESTION I ASKED COMMISSIONER NUCCI DURING OUR RECENT BUDGET HEARING AND HE INDICATED THAT, YOU KNOW, NO CORRECTION OFFICER OR CORRECTIONAL EMPLOYEE SHOULD BE LOSING THEIR JOB.

THEY WILL BE PLACED IN OTHER PLACES.

BUT, YOU KNOW, I THINK SOMETHING, IF THE FACILITIES ARE CLOSED AND I DON'T KNOW IF WE ARE GETTING INTO THAT YET BUT THERE ARE CERTAINLY OTHER USES FOR THE FACILITIES SO THEY DON'T JUST STAY DORMANT AND WE SHOULD HAVE OTHER ECONOMIC DEVELOPMENT OPPORTUNITIES FOR THESE COMMUNITIES WHO ARE GOING TO BE LOSING OUT BY LOSING THOSE FACILITIES.

BUT I THINK THE NUMBERS SHOW THAT THEY CAN BE MOVING SOME OF THE INCARCERATED INDIVIDUALS TO OTHER FACILITIES WITHOUT ANY DANGER BECAUSE THE FACILITIES' POPULATIONS ARE DOWN OVERALL AND WE CAN CONTINUE THAT.

CERTAINLY WE DON'T WANT TO DEVASTATE THE COMMUNITY IN UPSTATE AND THERE ARE OTHER WAYS WE CAN USE THOSE FACILITIES AND I WOULD HOPE THEY WOULD BE USED FOR GOOD USE THAT COULD CREATE ADDITIONAL JOBS AND BENEFIT THE COMMUNITIES DESPITE THE CLOSING OF THE FACILITY.

>> I PROMISE I'M COMING BACK TO YOU, BUT I WANT TO GET ASSEMBLYMAN PALMESANO IN ON THIS JUST BECAUSE YOU REPRESENT A DISTRICT AND IT MAY BE IN YOUR DISTRICT I APOLOGIZE IF I DON'T KNOW.

BUT YOU REPRESENT A DISTRICT CLOSE TO EL ELMIRA CORRECTIONAL FACILITY WHICH IS NOT ONE OF THE FACILITIES CLOSING BUT I ASSUME YOU HAVE A PERSPECTIVE ON THIS BECAUSE OF THE VICINITY.

WHERE DO YOU STAND ON THE PRISON CLOSURES?

>> I HAVE BEEN AN OUTSPOKEN CRITIC OF THE PRISON CLOSURES.

THE GOVERNOR HAS BEEN VERY PROUD OF THE NUMBER OF PRISONS HE HAS CLOSED AND TAKING CREDIT FOR THAT BUT I'VE SAID ALONG WITH THAT, HIS CLOSURES AND POLICIES, HE NEEDS TO TAKE CREDIT FOR THE DANGEROUS POWER KEG ENVIRONMENT.

IF YOU LOOK AT THE STATISTICS AND THE VIOLENCE, INMATE ON STAFF ASSAULTS UP OVER 38% OVER THE LAST FIVE YEARS.

NOT JUST INMATE ON INMATE.

A THOUSAND PER YEAR OVER THE PAST FIVE YEARS UP 31% UP.

THE POLICIES ARE CREATING A DANGEROUS ENVIRONMENT.

DRUGS ARE GETTING INTO OUR FACILITY.

OVER 4,000 PER YEAR OVER THE PAST FIVE YEARS AND GANG ACTIVITY IN THE FACILITIES.

NOT ENOUGH IS DO THAN TO ADDRESS IT.

IT'S COMMON KNOWLEDGE THAT DRUGS GET INTO OUR CORRECTIONAL FACILITIES IS A BIG PROBLEM BUT THE ADMINISTRATION IS DOING NOTHING TO TAKE ACTION ON THAT.

FOR EXAMPLE, WE HAVE SECURE VENDOR PACKAGE PROGRAM IN PLACE, A PILOT PROGRAM A FEW YEARS AGO.

HE ABRUPTLY IT CANCEL THAT PROGRAM AND HAS NOT PUT ANYTHING BACK IN PLACE.

DRUGS GET IN THAT WAY AND DRUGS GET INTO OUR FACILITIES THROUGH VISITATION.

AND WE'VE ASKED THE COMMISSIONER, WHY NOT PUT A CANINE AT EACH ENTRANCE.

HE SAID THERE WAS A BUDGET CONCERN.

AND ON TOP OF THAT, THEY AGRICULTURE, THE COMMISSIONER WAS ASKED ABOUT THIS PLANNING, HOW DO YOU PLAN FOR FACILITIES.

FIRST THING HE SAID YOU CLOSE THE FACILITY AND THEN DEVELOP A PLAN.

ONE OF MY COLLEAGUES MARK WALCZYK SAID YOU PLAN FOR THE CLOSURE, TAKE CARE OF THE STAFF AND MAKE SURE THE INMATES ARE SAFELY TRANSFERRED.

MY OTHER BIG PROBLEM IS NOT JUST THE CLOSURE OF THE PRISONS BUT THE FAST TRACKING OF THE CLOSURES, 90 DAYS, BECAUSE UNDER THE CURRENT STATUTE, THE GOVERNOR HAS TO PROVIDE 90 DAY.

WE DIDN'T DO IT IN THE LAST BUDGET.

THE LEGISLATIVE COLLEAGUES GAVE THE AUTHORITY TO CLOSE THEM DOWN IN 90 DAYS.

HE IS ASKING FOR THAT AGAIN.

THAT'S QUITE FRANKLY AN INSULT TO THE BRAVE MEN AND WOMEN WHO ARE DEDICATED TO KEEPING US SAFE.

THESE ARE OUR ESSENTIAL WORKERS.

THIS IS HOW WE ARE TREATING ESSENTIAL WORKERS.

90 DAYS IS NOT ENOUGH TIME TO PLAN, PROMOTE, MOVE YOUR KIDS TO ANOTHER COMMUNITY, FIND ANOTHER HOUSE OR SCHOOL.

THAT'S DISRUPTIVE.

WE KNOW PRISON CLOSURES ARE DISRUPTIVE TO FAMILIES, WORKERS AND LOCAL COMMUNITIES BUT 90 DAYS IS NOT YUF TIME TO PLAN.

AND ALL THESE REPURPOSING PLANS ARE NOT WORKING.

A LOT OF THEM ARE DECREPIT.

I HAD A SHOCK FACILITY IN MY AREA.

THE GOVERNOR SHUT THAT DOWN.

I DON'T UNDERSTAND WHY THAT HAPPENED.

THAT'S WHAT IS HAPPENING HERE AND IT'S REALLY, THESE FAST TRACK CLOSURES IS REALLY DISRESPECTFUL AND ADDS INSULT TO INJURY TO THE BRAVE MEN AND WOMEN WORKING IN A VERY DEDICATED JOB TO KEEP US SAFE.

DEDICATED AND DANGEROUS JOB TO KEEP US SAFE.

THE WAY IT HAS BEEN HANDLED HAVE BEEN REALLY POOR AND WE ARE NOT DOING ENOUGH TO PROVIDE ADEQUATE STAFF AND THERE ARE A LOT OF VALID REASONS TO HAVE MORE FACILITIES, SPREAD THEM OUT, WITH PROGRAMMING WE CAN DO THE REHABILITATION BETTER.

WE CAN HAVE A SAFER ENVIRONMENT BECAUSE AGAIN THESE ASSAULTS ARE HAPPENING ON INMATES AS MUCH AS THEY ARE AND THEN YOU TAKE OTHER TOOLS AWAY FROM THEM LIKE SPECIAL POLICY UNITS AND NOT PROVIDING THE TOOLS NECESSARY TO KEEP THEM SAFE.

WHY WHAT ABOUT TECHNOLOGY AND SCREEN FOR DRUGS COMING INTO THE FACILITIES.

THEY'RE NOT DOING ENOUGH THERE.

WE NEED TO DO A BETTER JOB THERE.

THE REPURPOSING PLANS ARE NOT SUFFICIENT.

THEY'RE NOT WORK WORKING I WOULD SAY TO MY COLLEAGUE, Mr. WEPRIN WE SHOULD OUTRIGHT REJECT THE GOVERNOR'S ASK TO DO A 90 DAY NOTIFICATION TO CLOSE DOWN THE PRISONS MUCH THAT'S THE LEAST WE OWE THE PEOPLE LOSING THERE I JOBS OR MOVING.

THAT'S NOT FAIR.

IT'S DISRESPECTFUL AND INSULTING.

WE CAN'T STOP THE GOVERNOR FROM CLOSING DOWN THE PRISONS BUT WE CAN STOP HIM FROM CLOSING IT DOWN IN 90 DAYS.

THAT'S THE LEAST WE CAN DO FOR ESSENTIAL WORKERS WHO GO TO A DANGEROUS JOB EVERY DAY TO KEEP US SAFE.

WE SHOULD REJECT THE GOVERNOR'S 90-DAY PRISON CLOSURE.

UNACCEPTABLE, UNFAIR AND PLAIN WRONG.

>> THEY WERE ARGUING THE ADMINISTRATION, OR THE GOVERNOR THAT IT SHOULD BE LESS TIME THEY SHOULD BE ABLE TO CLOSE WITHIN 30 DAYS.

THE 90-DAY NUMBER WAS THE NEGOTIATED AMOUNT OF TIME.

WHEN EVEN IT'S 90 DAYS, THAT DOESN'T MEAN THEY HAVE TO YOU KNOW,-- THEY HAVE TO NOTIFY WITHIN 90 DAYS BUT THAT DOESN'T MEAN THEY HAVE TO MOVE THAT FAST.

HISTORY HAS SHOWN IT DOESN'T MOVE THAT FAST AND IT'S PROBABLY GOING TO BE LONGER THAN 90 DAYS FROM THE TIME THEY ANNOUNCE THE PRISON CLOSING.

>> THE ONE ANNOUNCED MARCH 31 WAS A NICE THING THAT THE GOVERNOR DID ON THIS NOT MUCH TIME ON THAT WE HAVE THE ABILITY TO STOP THE 90-DAY PRISON CLOSURE.

WE HAVE THAT POWER.

THAT'S OUR CONSTITUTIONAL RIGHT AS A LEGISLATURE.

WE CAN REJECT IT.

HE CAN CLOSE IT.

ALL HAVE YOU TO DO, THE SENATE AND SENATE MAJORITY BECAUSE YOU CONTROL THE PROCESS.

SAY TO THE GOVERNOR WE SAY NO TO 90-DAY PRISON CLOSURE.

USE THE STATUTE UNDER THE LAW.

YOU HAVE ONE YEAR.

IF YOU WANT TO CLOSE DOWN A PRISON, YOU HAVE TO PROVIDE ONE-YEAR NOTIFICATION.

GIVE THEY WILL ONE-YEAR NOTIFICATION SO THE FAMILIES CAN PLAN AND GO THROUGH THE PROCESS.

WE HO THEM THAT.

THEY WORK A DANGEROUS JOB.

EVERY DA I IN THE NEWS THERE IS SOMEONE STABBED, SHANKED OR ATTACKED.

WE CAN'T DISMISS THIS IS HAPPENING.

WE OWE THESE CORRECTION OFFICERS AT LEAST THAT.

YOU AND YOUR CONFERENCE HAVE THE ABILITY-- WE DON'T WANT THE CLOSURES TO HAPPEN BUT THE GOVERNOR CAN CLOSE THEM.

WE KNOW THAT.

WE HAVE THE ABILITY TO STOP IT.

WE CAN SAY NO, GOVERNOR.

IF YOU ARE TWO FOR EXAMPLE TO CLOSE THE PRISONS, CLOSE THEM BUT HAVE YOU TO TAKE A YEAR TO DO IT.

THAT'S WHAT WOE SHOULD BE DOING.

>> I THINK THE 90 DAYS IS PROBABLY NOT QUICK ENOUGH FROM YOUR PERSPECTIVE.

THERE IS LIKE AN IDEAL.

I KNOW YOU DON'T WASN'T TO SEE THEM CLOSED ATHE ALL BUT WHAT ARE WE LOOKING AT?

WOULD YOU LIKE TO SEE SIX MONTHS, THREE MONTHS?

>> MY INTERNET IS GLITCHING.

>> WE'LL MOVE ON TO SOFFIYAH ELIJAH WHILE WE FIX THE TECHNICAL DIFFICULTIES.

ALL OF THIS OCCURS TO ME AND MIKE MADE THIS POINT AND I MADE THIS POINT.

CAN WE DO REHABILITATION AS EFFECTIVELY IN THESE DENSER PRISON POPULATIONS AS WE COULD IF WE KEPT THESE PRISONS OPEN AND MAYBE HAD A LESS DENSE POPULATION?

I'M JUST THINKING BACK TO WHEN I WAS IN HIGH SCHOOL AND HAVING SMALLER CLASS SIZES WOULD BE MORE FAVORABLE TO ME THAN A LARGER CLASS SIZE.

>> THANK YOU FOR THAT QUESTION.

I THINK IF ANYONE THINKS THAT QUALITY REHABILITATION WILL HAPPEN BY KEEPING PEOPLE IN CAGES, WE ARE STARTING OFF ON THE WRONG FOOT.

OKAY?

LET'S ACKNOWLEDGE THAT: BEFORE I GO DEEPER INTO THE ANSWER TO THAT QUESTION, I DEFINITELY WANT TO TURN TO Mr. PALMESANO, THE POINT HE WAS MAKING ABOUT SECURITY AS FAR AS CONTRABAND COMING INTO THE FACILITIES.

NIP WHO HAS VISITED A-- ANYONE WHO HAS VISITED A PRISON, ALL HAVE YOU TO DO IS SIT IN THE LOBBY AND YOU WILL SEE THE CORRECTIONAL OFFICERS COMING BACK AND FORTH ROUTINELY NOT BEING CHECKED FOR WHAT IS ON THEIR BODY AND IN THEIR BAGS.

THAT'S STANDARD OPERATING PROCEDURE AND IT HAS BEEN THAT WAY FOR DECADES EVER SINCE I STARTED VISITING PRISONS WHEN I WAS 17 YEARS OLD.

THERE ARE CANINES AT THE FACILITIES.

I DON'T KNOW IF YOU VISITED RECENTLY.

BUT THERE ARE CANINES DOING SNIFF CHECKS OF VISITORS ROUTINELY AT FACILITY IS ACROSS THE STAY.

THE PROCEDURES IN PLACE TO PROTECT AGAINST CONTRABAND COMING INSIDE.

I THOUGHT YOU WERE AWARE OF THAT.

LET ME TURN BACK TO YOUR QUESTION, DAN, ABOUT REHABILITATION F. WE REALLY WANT TO ADDRESS THE BEHAVIOR THAT RESULT OF PEOPLE COMING INTO PRISON, FIRST WE NEED TO DEAL WITH CREATING MORE ECONOMIC EQUITY ACROSS THE ENTIRE STATE SO THAT EVERYBODY HAS A FAIR CHANCE TO REALIZE THEIR DREAM.

WE CAN'T TALK ABOUT HOW WE ADJUST OR FIX THE CRIMINAL INJUSTICE SYSTEM IF WE DON'T DEAL WITH INEQUITIES AND INEQUALITY THAT EXIST ACROSS THE STATE.

THAT'S THE FUNDAMENTAL THINGS THAT WE HAVE TO ACKNOWLEDGE.

IF YOU LOOK AT THE DEMOGRAPHICS OF WHO HAS THE JOBS AS CORRECTIONS OFFICERS THROUGHOUT DOCCS.

YOU WILL SEE AN EXTREME LIMITATION OR VERY SMALL NUMBERS OF PEOPLE WHO ARE BLACK BLACK AND LATINX THROUGHOUT THE SYSTEM.

YOU GO TO SOME FACILITIES AND THERE ARE NONE.

WE STILL HAVE SOME OF RACISM THROUGHOUT THE SYSTEM.

WHEN THE MAJORITY OF THE PEOPLE, MORE THAN 50% OF THE PRISON POPULATION IS MADE UP OF BLACK AND LATINX PEOPLE FROM NEW YORK CITY AND THE MAJORITY OF THE STAFF COME FROM UPSTATE COMMUNITIES AND MOST OF THEM ARE WHITE.

WE STILL HAVE A PROBLEM WITH CORRECTIONS OFFICERS WHO ARE WEARING TATTOOS ON THEIR ARMS THAT DEPICT A BLACK BABY AT THE END OF A PITCH FORK.

DEPICT A BLACK BABY HANGING FROM A NOOSE.

IF WE WANT TO TALK ABOUT REHABILITATION, WE CAN NOT ENTERTAIN THE IDEA THAT STAFF, WHO ARE PAID WITH TAXPAYERS DOLLARS SHOULD BE WORKING IN THOSE JOBS.

NOW I'M NOT SAYING THEY'RE ALL SUFFERING FROM THAT BEHAVIOR.

BUT IF WE ARE GOING TO TALK ABOUT FUNDAMENTALLY CREATING A BETTER SYSTEM, THEN WE THEY'D TO ADDRESS THOSE PROBLEMS.

>> I DON'T MEAN TO INTEREST INTERRUPT YOU BUT WE ONLY HAVE A MINUTE LEAFT.

I WANT TO GIVE THE LAST MINUTE TO MIKE POWERS TO RESPOND TO ALL OF THAT.

>> I DON'T NECESSARILY CONCUR WITH Ms. ELIJAH BASED OFF OF THAT.

WE HAVE MANY MECHANIC NICHES IF PLACE.

OUR FRONT LINE OFFICERS WHETHER THEY'RE IN THE FRONT LOBBY OR IN THE PACKAGE ROOMS, MINUS THE SECURE VENDOR PACKAGE PROGRAM, WE ARE THE BEST IN THE NATION AND I SAY THAT PROUDLY.

I SAY THAT BASED OFF THE FACT THAT WE HAVE STATISTICALLY THE BEST SYSTEM IN THE STATE AND I THINK-- IN THE COUNTRY, AND I BELIEVE THAT IT CAN BE EVEN BETTER IN A LESS DENSE SITUATION BY CREATING A BETTER REHABILITATION MODEL.

I'M NOT FAMILIAR WITH ANYBODY'S TATTOOS OR THEIR PERSONAL LIVES.

WE REPRESENT 20,000 HARD WORKING STAFF THAT COME TO WORK EACH AND EVERY DA I THAT DID IT DURING A WORLDWIDE PANDEMIC.

AND I'M NOT GOING TO SUGGEST THAT RACISM DOESN'T EXIST BECAUSE IT'S PRETTY EVIDENT THAT IT DOES.

BUT OUR MEMBERSHIP, AS FAR AS DISCIPLINARY WISE, ONE TENTH OF 1% ACT AGREASE US GENERALLY HIVE EGREGIOUSLY.

WE ADDRESS THAT IMMEDIATELY.

WE ARE PROUD PROFESSIONALS.

WE HOLD OUR HEADS HIGH AND DO A JOB THAT MOST CAN'T DO WITH THAT BEING SAID, MY QUESTION IS HOW DOES CLOSING PRISONS PROMOTE AND SUPPORT CRIMINAL JUSTICE REFORM WHEN THAT MODEL NEEDS TO BE LOOKED AT, THAT REHABILITATION MODEL NEEDS TO BE LOOKED AT.

>> WE ARE OUT OF TIME.

I'M SO SORRY.

WE HAVE TO LEAVE IT THERE.

THANK YOU ALL FOR JOINING US ON CONNECT NEW YORK.

IF YOU WANT TO WEIGH IN ON ANY ISSUE OR WATCH ANY OLD EPISODES HEAD TO OUR WEBSITE ON YOUR SCREEN.

I'M DAN CLARK AND YOU CAN FIND ME ON YOUR LOCAL PBS STATION.

THANKS FOR WATCHING AND BE WELL.